Lets crack this Doxa China Thing

Asian Made & Swiss Asian watches
TVDinner
Posts: 420
Joined: June 2nd 2010, 10:00pm
Contact:

Re: Lets crack this Doxa China Thing

Post by TVDinner » December 24th 2012, 10:51pm

Still not sure of your motive for this thread. Posting something and then proving it, or providing facts to back up an argument are great. But now you are way off topic and talking about percentages of Chinese this or that. How about some proof of anything you have posted so far.

Remember - you are the one who started this thread with claims and supposed facts. Let's see some proof or verification or just about anything to back up your claims.
User avatar
koimaster
Founder
Posts: 42000
Joined: December 16th 2009, 11:00pm
Location: Oregon, Thanks for visiting! Now go back home!
Contact:

Re: Lets crack this Doxa China Thing

Post by koimaster » December 24th 2012, 11:22pm

ewcuk wrote:
well so much for free speech .. say it as you see it and your called a troll .. whats you beef with someones opinion ? ... I read the heading and the forum guidelines and unless I am mistaken we are encouraged to speak freely or are you like timezone until someone says something you don't like ... Just for the record of this thread how many years have you lived in Asia ? Or are you one of the 85% of US citizens that has never been out side of the USA



Free speech is in fact encouraged here as are opinions. With that stated, stating an opinion as fact is what draws the troll comments. Lets start with the screen shots below which I took and which were later posted at three other forums I know of by others. Within 12 hours after I posted these screen shots, the pages were removed and replaced but the damage was done. I was sent a very nasty note by Doxa demanding the screenshots be removed and then I was threatened not only on this forum but at facebook also.

Too bad I also have all of the records of John Vargas so, whenever anyone makes a claim here, we ask that facts are presented to back those claims up. If it is an opinion, well as you have layed out, it is your opinion and you have reasoned why you have it.

Free speech wins out no matter what. On this site, the two admins, myself and Watch Noob, do not step into these arguments. It is up to members to figure it out one way or another. Not everyone agrees with the opinion of others and that is what makes life interesting and this forum very different.


http://www.walca.ch/index.php?m=100&c=100

http://www.walca.ch/index.php?m=100&c=100



Image
Image
Image
Image

1946-2006

“Your heart was warm and happy

With the lilt of Irish laughter

Every day and in every way

Now forever and ever after."
User avatar
fatman
ASSHAT
Posts: 4442
Joined: February 7th 2011, 11:00pm
Contact:

Re: Lets crack this Doxa China Thing

Post by fatman » December 25th 2012, 2:43am

I don't care too much if a watch is made, assembled in china as long as it is not misrepresented as something else. I think that the majority on this forum probably feel the same way. The Chinese watches or components are for the most part decent quality at a decent price.

The problem comes about when douchbag companies try to hide behind a companies rich history ( history being the key word ) and market their Chinese stuff as something else. When they may be exposed they threaten with lawsuits and cry to moderators to have threads scrubbed and closed down on watch forum.

I personally have never read anything like the stuff I have read about Doxa in the same light as Oris, Tag or Rolex.

OP, you obviously came here with a agenda. Well you came to the wrong place for that soapboxing type of shit. There are way too many members here that have been around the block too many times to listen to your rabble rousing.
HF
User avatar
arubalou

Re: Lets crack this Doxa China Thing

Post by arubalou » December 25th 2012, 3:25am

well so much for free speech .. say it as you see it and your called a troll .. whats you beef with someones opinion ? ... I read the heading and the forum guidelines and unless I am mistaken we are encouraged to speak freely or are you like timezone until someone says something you don't like ... Just for the record of this thread how many years have you lived in Asia ? Or are you one of the 85% of US citizens that has never been out side of the USA[/quote]

free speech is great but when its a load of troll bullshit thats something else. stop bneing so fucking arrogant and back up your claims. douche
User avatar
Kahuna74
Senior Member & WIS
Posts: 4459
Joined: June 11th 2011, 10:00pm
Contact:

Re: Lets crack this Doxa China Thing

Post by Kahuna74 » December 25th 2012, 4:42am

I think what some of us mean by pictures are ones of the watches being made, assembled in Switzerland as you claim they are.Taking your watch apart proves nothing. Parts can be stamp claiming Swiss and not be Swiss. So get us some Real pictures of the watches being put together in the secret Factory that no one can find!
User avatar
codguy
ASSHAT
Posts: 7443
Joined: June 9th 2011, 10:00pm
Contact:

Re: Lets crack this Doxa China Thing

Post by codguy » December 25th 2012, 5:27am

Image
Seeing the inners of your Doxa and/or comparison pictures with your Tag doesn't mean shit.

Unless you post pictures of the inside/outside of Doxa's Switzerland watch producing building and post the building's physical address, your Doxa's will be considered Chinese Walca forever more.


On the freedom of speech thing;


Image
.

Welcome to the watchlords liberal echo chamber



.
eddiea
Founding Member & Master of Time
Posts: 10648
Joined: December 25th 2009, 11:00pm

Re: Lets crack this Doxa China Thing

Post by eddiea » December 25th 2012, 5:59am

ewcuk wrote:
eddiea wrote:
ewcuk wrote:
I own a company in Singapore I have lived in Asia for over ten years, yes I have been to China with Chinese people and one of my co directors is Chinese descendent as are a number of my Singaporean suppliers ... Oh you had better believe I speak from knowledge, let the tests begin I will be happy when time permits to supply the proof . I have lived in Thailand / Philippines / Singapore and Hong Kong in the last ten years . I sold my UK manufacturing company in 1991 and created a new one in my field in Asia 4 years ago . It is now based in Singapore ... Confirm my IP with the moderator if you like .. with regards to blanket accusations ... Do frogs croak when its raining ? Then the Chinese cut costs ALL OF THEM
Watches are my passion not my business , engineering is my qualification not my business , manufacture is my business .... and the name will remain my business so don't ask

You must be in the top ten list of lousiest trolls that ever visited here (and God knows we had a few) your level of stupidity, is just a tad above too damn high.
Guessing your holidays are a bit shitty? Singapore? you mean, that Tanjong Pagar shithole of yours? or is it a proxy IP? so why don't you, in the spirit of Christmas go fuck yourself ...


well so much for free speech .. say it as you see it and your called a troll Indeed that's the idea, I say it as I see it ...and I see a fucking troll .. whats you beef with someones opinion ? none really, but it is a difference between having an opinion and vomiting stupidity ... I read the heading and the forum guidelines and unless I am mistaken we are encouraged to speak freely or are you like timezone until someone says something you don't like You are not mistaking, free speech is encouraged , keep posting your shit and find out, why trolling is also highly discouraged here... Just for the record of this thread how many years have you lived in Asia ? Or are you one of the 85% of US citizens that has never been out side of the USA, couple questions that have nothing to do with this thread record and are none of your fucking business, I'll say for the sake of the thread record, that you are a troll, not too good at it, not too entertaining... disappointingly, a troll wannabe .

Watch Noob
Founding Member
Posts: 7509
Joined: December 16th 2009, 11:00pm
Contact:

Re: Lets crack this Doxa China Thing

Post by Watch Noob » December 25th 2012, 7:23am

Horse Feathers wrote:Quick question for the OP.

Can you explain why the company behind the Doxa brand offers no documented defense of the accusations themselves ? It seem their defense is to just deny or make threats. That alone turned me off and will not consider a purchase

Find it odd that you join a forum just to defend them. I'll play along with skepticism until I see more proof.


Good thread. This is pretty much my opinion as well. When accusations started to flow and evidence of cases were found on Asian websites, the only thing I heard from Doxa were legal threats. That in itself is usually a bad sign. I love the look of a few of the Doxa line, but until they are proven to be a legit company, I won't be buying any time soon.
Drifter on Watchlords
User avatar
Tzimisces

Re: Lets crack this Doxa China Thing

Post by Tzimisces » December 25th 2012, 8:30am

Is Doxa made in China ? I am a 100%
certain
that it conforms to the Swiss rules of Swiss made and as such is
Swiss made. Almost certainly some parts are made in China but I would
suggest
these parts are the bracelet and not much else .


Fact is I think


they don't seem to cut corners


I think quality alone say Swiss


You are being called a troll because your proof that Doxa is Swiss Made comes down to how you feel and what you think is the truth. Sorry, pal, your thoughts and feelings mean nothing to me. How about actually proving Doxa is Swiss? You started this foolishness, so the burden is on you.
User avatar
3Flushes (Online)
ASSHAT & Master of Time
Posts: 8656
Joined: November 25th 2012, 11:00pm
Facebook ID: 0
Contact:

Re: Lets crack this Doxa China Thing

Post by 3Flushes » December 25th 2012, 11:55am

Tzimisces wrote:
Is Doxa made in China ? I am a 100%
certain
that it conforms to the Swiss rules of Swiss made and as such is
Swiss made. Almost certainly some parts are made in China but I would
suggest
these parts are the bracelet and not much else .


Fact is I think


they don't seem to cut corners


I think quality alone say Swiss


You are being called a troll because your proof that Doxa is Swiss Made comes down to how you feel and what you think is the truth. Sorry, pal, your thoughts and feelings mean nothing to me. How about actually proving Doxa is Swiss? You started this foolishness, so the burden is on you.


The only thing wrong with what you said Tz is that I didn't say it. Seems to me, once Mongo is finished off, this bullshit artist OP may have a bright future with the IWG.
Copyright ©️ 2020 3flushes Media.
User avatar
koimaster
Founder
Posts: 42000
Joined: December 16th 2009, 11:00pm
Location: Oregon, Thanks for visiting! Now go back home!
Contact:

Re: Lets crack this Doxa China Thing

Post by koimaster » December 25th 2012, 12:23pm

What I might point out is that there are other companies out there that have no issues. Maurice Lacroix, Breguet, Frederique Constant and many others. You do not hear all of these comments or rumors about them.

Armand Nicolet makes watches for numerous companies yet you do not hear that they use Chinese parts nor anything that might make you doubt the brand. Doxa brought these doubts upon themselves not only here where the screen shots were first posted, but at several other forums and venues.




Doxa USA, does it exist only as a name, here in the US where it is only a DBA (Doing Business As) DOXA Watches, or are they are actually incorporated in the State of Texas as Synchron Watch Group LLC? Did Doxa ever have a calling center in California as claimed and if so, was it legally incorporated there?

Did Doxa ever have US dealers and did they cut them off for no apparent reason leading to threats of lawsuits? Is Doxa just a private label company? And did they ever brag about being the most successful "internet watch company"? And did Doxa ever claim that certain product LE products were sold out only to find far more than the original run?



Image

1946-2006

“Your heart was warm and happy

With the lilt of Irish laughter

Every day and in every way

Now forever and ever after."
User avatar
Horse Feathers
ASSHAT - RETIRED
Posts: 9280
Joined: August 29th 2010, 10:00pm
Facebook ID: 0
Contact:

Re: Lets crack this Doxa China Thing

Post by Horse Feathers » December 25th 2012, 4:24pm

Is it me or has this thread gone in a predictable path.

A new "member" of the forum joins to start a to set us straight on the facts. He does so by sharing "feelings" and opinion". When challenged he offers that his insights are based upon undocumented and unverifiable experience (trade, business, geography and culture). When challenged further by conflicting hands-on experience (Conjurer's Doxa experience) they don't offer rebuttal, instead they question and mock the openness of our forum (free speech) instead of recognizing their responsibility to properly address their accusation that we were in fact wrong. Finally, when shown documented evidence (Koi's screen shots) they run.

Last edited by Anonymous on December 25th 2012, 4:44pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image

"I did lose a pusher pulling it out of the mug however
it doesn't affect functionality"

- JR of Reclinervision ™
User avatar
Datsun240Z71
Founding Member - WIS
Posts: 2541
Joined: February 9th 2010, 11:00pm
Contact:

Re: Lets crack this Doxa China Thing

Post by Datsun240Z71 » December 26th 2012, 4:11am

From the OP:

Demanding pictures is anyone's call but what are you going to get from a picture the feel of the metal ..NO .. the feel of the crown ..NO ..the weight of the watch ... NO... the sound of the tick ..NO .. the fit and finish of the bezel ..NO .. all you get is your personal ...

That made me chuckle hard!
Randy in Nashville
User avatar
Hawk
ASSHAT
Posts: 10238
Joined: October 8th 2010, 10:00pm
Facebook ID: 0
Location: Orlando, FL
Contact:

Re: Lets crack this Doxa China Thing

Post by Hawk » December 26th 2012, 9:41am

ewcuk wrote:
OK Then

Unless you are in denial you know that cutting cost is a way of life both in and out of China for Chinese people. You must also know that NO Chinese company in China can be owned by any foreign company in any greater portion than 49% .. that means every Chinese company in China is Chinese .. Hence anyone with 51% owns the company . There may be westerners on the surface bit underneath who has the final say ?

A couple of observations here:

1. Being from Singapore confers as much knowledge about China as being in Montana confers knowledge of Uruguayan business practices. We have a member that confused Singapore with China but he's not been around in a while. I believe he's chasing pussy in Brazil which I encourage.

2. Every business in China is 51% owned by the government. Well, that just busted whatever presumptive credibility you came blowing in with. I do business with a Foreign-funded enterprise in Tianjin and they would be most surprised to learn that the investors only own 49%.
excerpted from the PDF wrote:
Article 1. ... the People's Republic of China permits foreign enterprises, other foreign economic organizations and individuals (hereinafter collectively referred to as "foreign investors") to set up foreign-funded enterprises in China and protects the legitimate rights and interests of such enterprises.

Article 2. As mentioned in this Law, "foreign-funded enterprises" refers to those enterprises established in China by foreign investors, exclusively with their own capital... The state encourages the establishment of foreign-funded enterprises that export their products or have advanced technologies.

Article 4. The investments of a foreign investor in China, the profits it earns and its other lawful rights and interests are protected by Chinese law...

Article 5. The state shall not nationalize or requisition ...

Click the link for the whole thing. See also WFOE (Wholly foreign owned enterprise)

Lastly, you may benefit from study of principle known as Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus. Appropriated by the Brits from the Romans and thereafter snagged by us as both a legal principle and a means of vetting yellow-hued first posts. It means if you claim expertise in a specific matter, say, Chinese business law and totally fuck it up everything else you say will be held to greater scrutiny than if you hadn't fucked it up.

Short version: your assertions, in the absence of corroboration, are the mutterings of one without credibility.

For what little it may be worth, Thailand has a 49% provision for property purchased by a foreign national - perhaps you confused the two. Wait... 'Po, is that you?
User avatar
Wasp
Senior Member & WIS
Posts: 3300
Joined: December 31st 2012, 11:00pm
Facebook ID: 0
Location: Zip Code: e-i-e-i-o
Contact:

More input on the topic

Post by Wasp » January 2nd 2013, 8:40am

[font='Times New Roman']Hmmmm. Owning a DOXA I reached out to Doxa in Swittzie-land. Here is what they told me.[/font]



[font='Times New Roman'][WASP][/font][font='Times New Roman'] Im reading that parts for your high end doxas IE 5000, 1500 750,800 etc. are made in Hong Kong and China. True?[/font]

[font='Times New Roman'][CS1][/font][font='Times New Roman'] Hi[/font]

[font='Times New Roman'][CS1][/font][font='Times New Roman'] No, this is not true. Some of our competitors have been saying that for years.[/font]

[font='Times New Roman'][WASP][/font][font='Times New Roman'] Well thats good to hear. I have the 1500T and am very happy with it. There is a picture of DOXA watch bodies on a page from a Chineese/ Hong Kong watch parts producer. Are you aware of that?[/font]

[font='Times New Roman'][CS1][/font][font='Times New Roman'] Yes, that is a web site for Walca. Walca is a company owned by the Jenny family, they also own DOXA. The Jenny family is a very old Swiss watchmaking family. They made the cases for DOXA back in the 1960's-80's, for the original owners.[/font]

[font='Times New Roman'][WASP][/font][font='Times New Roman'] Very Interesting. The plot thickens[/font]

[font='Times New Roman'][CS1][/font][font='Times New Roman'] Walca makes watches in Switzerland for other companies as what is called Private Label watches. They also make some watches in Hong Kong for the Asian market. Rest assured that all of the watches we make that are labled Swiss Made are in fact Swiss Made.[/font]

[font='Times New Roman'][CS1][/font][font='Times New Roman'] Yes, there is a lot if misinformation out there that gets spread around as fact:)[/font]



[font='Verdana']…..over[/font]

[font='Verdana']WASP[/font]
Image
User avatar
koimaster
Founder
Posts: 42000
Joined: December 16th 2009, 11:00pm
Location: Oregon, Thanks for visiting! Now go back home!
Contact:

Re: Lets crack this Doxa China Thing

Post by koimaster » January 2nd 2013, 1:26pm

Well, they only need to show us a Doxa factory in the land of cheese. I know they claim to have 50 employees in a building there but that could be a call and chat center since they are an on-line retailer only. Does it not suprise you that a company claiming to be the most sucessful factory direct on-line watch company in the world never shows its' facilities.
Image

1946-2006

“Your heart was warm and happy

With the lilt of Irish laughter

Every day and in every way

Now forever and ever after."
User avatar
Hawk
ASSHAT
Posts: 10238
Joined: October 8th 2010, 10:00pm
Facebook ID: 0
Location: Orlando, FL
Contact:

Re: Lets crack this Doxa China Thing

Post by Hawk » January 2nd 2013, 4:44pm

Quite unlike the OP, WASP has not presented himself as an expert on matters he subsequently was proven ignorant of. He has, unless I've missed it, done nothing other than offer the statements of someone at Doxa claiming that everything they say is Swiss made is, indeed, Swiss made.

So what's new? Nothing, actually. Doxa has always made those claims and it's not realistic to believe that they'd stop making these claims simply because someone known as WASP was asking the questions. Hence we have learned nothing new.

I had a position on the OP - basically that he claimed knowledge that he didn't have. As to the new guy I haven't noted any such leap. Further I have no real position on Doxa's "Swissness". Then again, I don't believe that all things Swiss deserve to get more money in the market than all things Malaysian, but that's a minority view.

What I do know is based on simple observation: Doxa's marketing is hinky. They, at the same time, claim they have no retailers yet proclaim they're offering a discount from their MSRP. Let's be clear here - if you have no "R"s, you have no "P" that you might "S"uggest. It's all bullshit.

Invicter, Stuhrling, Android, Swiss Legend and similar have MSRP's that have never been charged anywhere at any time yet are discounted. Rolex, Patek, AP and even Ball do not.

Thus Doxa, at least according to our own FTC, is engaging in deceptive trade practices. Irrespective of the quality of the watch that, in and of itself, is enough to discourage my purchase of one. It's being sold on a foundation of bullshit and it's not unreasonable to assume that, if they'll condone bullshit in one area, they'll do so in another.

Drop the bullshit MSRP's and I'll reconsider - regardless of where they're made and by whom. Though I would prefer that the full line as shown at http://www.doxa.ch/en/ be shown rather than the abbreviated bullshit MSRP stuff that's peddled at their US office.

User avatar
AlbertaTime
Master of Time
Posts: 4003
Joined: October 13th 2010, 10:00pm
Facebook ID: 0
Location: Peace River, Alberta
Contact:

Re: Lets crack this Doxa China Thing

Post by AlbertaTime » January 2nd 2013, 6:39pm

ewcuk wrote:
"Chinese consider cheating and corruption as a cultural benefit and smart , as such there is no such thing as integrity..."
You can say what you want about specific people or specific companies you deal with -- I'll respect what first hand experience you can show you have -- but why would you ever think you'd get away with tossing around shallow stereotypes like that one, here at WatchLords?

Did you not expect that at least one person here (if not more, as it turns out) might have enough first hand experience with watches from a range of countries, and/or with Chinese business practices, and companies, and people in China to simply know that you're wrong when you generalize like that?

As for this from you:
"Or are you one of the 85% of US citizens that has never been out side of the USA"...
Nope. I'm one of the 100% of _me_ that's been to China, and that's happily returning in April (I can hardly wait to see my friends there again) and that deals with Chinese people that live in China almost every day, and has for a few years now.

Here's a photo taken in China of me and a man I consider as family, as my brother, which is exactly what he (kindly and sincerely) considers me. For just one example: he's _never_ failed to meet a commitment he's made with me, about anything, ever.

Image

...and another hint: this photo wasn't taken in Toronto and staged for your benefit:

Image

So...what can you prove about Doxa's "Swissness", now? Around here, we like it if folks back up their claims. Welcome to WatchLords, and Happy New Year.
Curator: Alberta Museum of Chinese Horology in Peace River

"That stone buddha deserves all the birdshit it gets. I wave my skinny arms like a tall flower in the wind." Ikkyu
User avatar
conjurer
ASSHAT & Master of Time
Posts: 31982
Joined: July 13th 2010, 10:00pm
Contact:

Re: Lets crack this Doxa China Thing

Post by conjurer » January 2nd 2013, 10:33pm

AlbertaTime wrote:ewcuk wrote:
"Chinese consider cheating and corruption as a cultural benefit and smart , as such there is no such thing as integrity..."
You can say what you want about specific people or specific companies you deal with -- I'll respect what first hand experience you can show you have -- but why would you ever think you'd get away with tossing around shallow stereotypes like that one, here at WatchLords?

Did you not expect that at least one person here (if not more, as it turns out) might have enough first hand experience with watches from a range of countries, and/or with Chinese business practices, and companies, and people in China to simply know that you're wrong when you generalize like that?

As for this from you:
"Or are you one of the 85% of US citizens that has never been out side of the USA"...
Nope. I'm one of the 100% of _me_ that's been to China, and that's happily returning in April (I can hardly wait to see my friends there again) and that deals with Chinese people that live in China almost every day, and has for a few years now.

Here's a photo taken in China of me and a man I consider as family, as my brother, which is exactly what he (kindly and sincerely) considers me. For just one example: he's _never_ failed to meet a commitment he's made with me, about anything, ever.

Image

...and another hint: this photo wasn't taken in Toronto and staged for your benefit:

Image

So...what can you prove about Doxa's "Swissness", now? Around here, we like it if folks back up their claims. Welcome to WatchLords, and Happy New Year.


That was well said, A-T, goddamn it. For a Canadian, you busted his balls pretty good.
Image
Post Reply

Return to “Asian and Far East Watches”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest