More Bad News For Schoolkids

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WIStful
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Re: More Bad News For Schoolkids

Post by WIStful » April 10th 2024, 12:37pm

conjurer wrote:
April 10th 2024, 12:02pm
You should have been here in the early years. We used to kick the slower kids down the stairs once a day, and twice on Sundays. And, we had capital fun doing it!
Oh I remember. Pretty unhinged, part of the appeal. Soaring heights of literary grade invective.

IT industry interviews for job applicants and employee counseling sessions in the 90s and into the 2000s had a rep for being quite pointed and I did my part.

Until mid 2000s when one would be poking at the chinks in a younger dude’s armor and his lower lip would start quivering then next thing you know he is full out weeping in one’s office.

Me: Dafuck?

Uncomfortable scenes that I wasn't getting paid enough to sit thru so I toned things down.
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Nuvolari
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Re: More Bad News For Schoolkids

Post by Nuvolari » April 11th 2024, 12:38pm

It’s a bit like public speaking, which schools are also allowing some students to bow out by providing an alternative to an oral presentation. You know, poor Jimmy has ‘anxiety’.

However, getting up to give that speech or report before your entire class is an opportunity to develop a craft at a young age - just like learning how to effectively confront a bully.

The speech - sure it’s nerve racking and unsettling and unfair and all the kid reasons… but then when a kid finishes delivering his or her bit they experience the exhilaration of having seen the task through instead of fleeing from it. AND they possibly will have done much better than they thought they would.

The bully - when a kid confronts his bully, or at least doesn’t acquiesce, if there is a fight and the student holds their own - or wins - they will likely experience respect from their peers (and often the bully) and also enjoy the satisfaction of recognizing they didn’t ‘cave’. AND they possibly will have done much better than they thought they would.

But where we used to slug it out and then move on, occasionally even as friends, today the world is far more extreme: Most flee - but where there is engagement the humiliation of having your ass beat no longer provides resolution. Weasels wanna escalate.
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WIStful
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Re: More Bad News For Schoolkids

Post by WIStful » April 11th 2024, 7:00pm

Like most things, bullying has positive and negative manifestations.

The negative case is pathological appetite of the bully, sadism or insecurities usually.

In the positive case, one is pushing a dude to do something that he sees as walking the plank but really is a springboard to the next level for the guy.

The public tends to frame the bully leaving the guy alone after his mark stands up to him because of fear etc on the part of the bully.

This is more or less true in the negative case. However, in the positive case it is because the bully thinks, ok my work is done here.
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Re: More Bad News For Schoolkids

Post by jason_recliner » April 11th 2024, 7:04pm

WIStful wrote:
April 11th 2024, 7:00pm
Like most things, bullying has positive and negative manifestations.

The negative case is pathological appetite of the bully, sadism or insecurities usually.

In the positive case, one is pushing a dude to do something that he sees as walking the plank but really is a springboard to the next level for the guy.

The public tends to frame the bully leaving the guy alone after his mark stands up to him because of fear etc on the part of the bully.

This is more or less true in the negative case. However, in the positive case it is because the bully thinks, ok my work is done here.
Have you ever been bullied? There's nothing positive about it.
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Re: More Bad News For Schoolkids

Post by WIStful » April 11th 2024, 7:41pm

jason_recliner wrote:
April 11th 2024, 7:04pm
WIStful wrote:
April 11th 2024, 7:00pm
Like most things, bullying has positive and negative manifestations.

The negative case is pathological appetite of the bully, sadism or insecurities usually.

In the positive case, one is pushing a dude to do something that he sees as walking the plank but really is a springboard to the next level for the guy.

The public tends to frame the bully leaving the guy alone after his mark stands up to him because of fear etc on the part of the bully.

This is more or less true in the negative case. However, in the positive case it is because the bully thinks, ok my work is done here.
Have you ever been bullied? There's nothing positive about it.
I guess I was using the term rather broadly. Lots of indoctrination programs incorporate bullying of their novitiates. Sometimes things go off rails and it descends into hazing. Other times it helps guys find inner strengths they didn't know they had which is why this practice is fairly common in organizations.


I think virtually everyone has been bullied to some degree at various points in their life.
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Re: More Bad News For Schoolkids

Post by jason_recliner » April 11th 2024, 8:08pm

WIStful wrote:
April 11th 2024, 7:41pm
jason_recliner wrote:
April 11th 2024, 7:04pm
WIStful wrote:
April 11th 2024, 7:00pm
Like most things, bullying has positive and negative manifestations.

The negative case is pathological appetite of the bully, sadism or insecurities usually.

In the positive case, one is pushing a dude to do something that he sees as walking the plank but really is a springboard to the next level for the guy.

The public tends to frame the bully leaving the guy alone after his mark stands up to him because of fear etc on the part of the bully.

This is more or less true in the negative case. However, in the positive case it is because the bully thinks, ok my work is done here.
Have you ever been bullied? There's nothing positive about it.
I guess I was using the term rather broadly. Lots of indoctrination programs incorporate bullying of their novitiates. Sometimes things go off rails and it descends into hazing. Other times it helps guys find inner strengths they didn't know they had which is why this practice is fairly common in organizations.


I think virtually everyone has been bullied to some degree at various points in their life.
Bullying by definition is harmful. Indoctrination programs have moved on a long way from what you're decribing as they aren't the most effective way to bring out the best in people, as well as are often discriminatory/uninclusive.
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Re: More Bad News For Schoolkids

Post by WIStful » April 11th 2024, 8:19pm

I am happy to leave it at that. I certainly dont want to be advocating for abusing people. Because I certainly don’t.

My half Japanese son went thru elementary school in Japan, only mixed kid in entire school. Japanese schools tend to take a hands off approach to bullying, iijime, as the tendency is to view it as group self governance.

Fortunately my kid experienced little issues there but I was hyper sensitive to the issue for years, lots of bad experiences by (part) foreign kids in Japan, it is a meme, at least at that time.

So please don't get me wrong on this, poorly articulated on my part and my apologies.
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Re: More Bad News For Schoolkids

Post by 3Flushes » April 11th 2024, 8:33pm

jason_recliner wrote:
April 11th 2024, 7:04pm
WIStful wrote:
April 11th 2024, 7:00pm
Like most things, bullying has positive and negative manifestations.

The negative case is pathological appetite of the bully, sadism or insecurities usually.

In the positive case, one is pushing a dude to do something that he sees as walking the plank but really is a springboard to the next level for the guy.

The public tends to frame the bully leaving the guy alone after his mark stands up to him because of fear etc on the part of the bully.

This is more or less true in the negative case. However, in the positive case it is because the bully thinks, ok my work is done here.
Have you ever been bullied? There's nothing positive about it.
^^This

The notion that bullies have some benevolent intent by preying on their victims is purely ludicrous. A bully who moves on after being stood up to does so because they are cowards, much like the predators who prey on elderly or disabled victims. The effects of violence perpetrated against children are pervasive whether bullied, abused, raised in a domestically violent home, or affected by violent crime. The number of child and adolescent victims of violence who act out in a wide variety of violent or self destructive manners speaks incontrovertibly to the pernicious effects of violence on healthy development.

In the face of the pervasive lack of a priority for mental health and family services in the US in general, and for early intervention specifically, the epidemic of violence in the US will continue to spiral out of control. And the worst of it; given the length of time the psychiatric safety net has been down, it is likely too late to do a damn thing about it.
^^^Copyright ©️ 2023 3flushes Media.^^^
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Re: More Bad News For Schoolkids

Post by gerdson » April 12th 2024, 12:25pm

Your kid had it within himself ( is that proper English?)
I had a few experiences of getting bullied, but not a lot - can't tell why. But I am afraid those who are vulnerable to it, will also be targeted. The others go free.
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Re: More Bad News For Schoolkids

Post by WIStful » April 12th 2024, 1:08pm

gerdson wrote:
April 12th 2024, 12:25pm
Your kid had it within himself ( is that proper English?)
I had a few experiences of getting bullied, but not a lot - can't tell why. But I am afraid those who are vulnerable to it, will also be targeted. The others go free.
I was concerned that he might end up being victimized but not want to say anything. So I used yo question him closely and observe his interactions with his peers. Also fully encouraged him not yo put up with any nonsense..

He ended up bring at a minimum a well adjusted kid with lots of friends etc but I was on edge the first couple of years.

Middle school is where this is can be a most acute issue. That is where it is rather institutionalized, evet new kid gets assigned to an upper classman is a big/little brother relationship, senpaikohai, senior/junior that is a common social construct throughout Japanese society and things can ho off the rails there


Usually doesn't though and interesting part of Jaoanese ed system is that they are very big on having the big kids take responsibility for the little kids


Like on a field ttip, the big kids shepherd and lead little kids to the train station, show them how to work ticket machines and such.

Teachers just hang out behind at the end of the column just watching and not intervening unless their assistance is necessary for some reason.


Lots of stuff like that is embedded in Japanese schools Kids have to ckean classrooms daily, serve meals to each other, stuff that employees would do in the west


Overall very positive experience but it can create circumstances for iijime for any kid, native or foreign, to arise. No system is perfect of course, and nobody wants dysfunction to occur any more than anyone wants the circumstances in the US to school shootings

It was fascinating really. Part of what makes being Japanese Japanese, core principle.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senpai_and_k%C5%8Dhai
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