I'm not buying it

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Re: I'm not buying it

Post by jason_recliner » March 25th 2024, 6:40pm

bedlam wrote:
March 25th 2024, 5:15pm
I get Netlfix at 4K but these docos breathlessly present the same old ultra-grainy, can't-see-anything-really footage. I can see the individual roof-tiles on my house on google-earth but nothing genuinely discernible is ever available when it comes to UFO's.

The footage you see of the Loch Ness 'monster' is better than the UFO trash.
But it's video of something, it's not nothing. What could it be?

If something exists primarily in dimension beyond spacetime, but requires a lot of energy and very specifc conditions to do it, perhaps sometimes it partially exists in our 4 dimensions, and so can be sensed by some equipment and our eyes, but not in any detail. Perhaps in the future we not only identify dark matter but also are able to manipulate it, creating things that are mostly undetectable (prerequiste for backwards time travel) but sometimes it goes a bit wrong and can be detected. Who knows, these are just two options based only on our current understanding of physics. It would be naive to assume that there is not technology, either present or future, we cannot comprehend/understand/foresee.
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Re: I'm not buying it

Post by smellody » March 25th 2024, 7:14pm

jason_recliner wrote:
March 25th 2024, 6:40pm
bedlam wrote:
March 25th 2024, 5:15pm
I get Netlfix at 4K but these docos breathlessly present the same old ultra-grainy, can't-see-anything-really footage. I can see the individual roof-tiles on my house on google-earth but nothing genuinely discernible is ever available when it comes to UFO's.

The footage you see of the Loch Ness 'monster' is better than the UFO trash.
But it's video of something, it's not nothing. What could it be?

If something exists primarily in dimension beyond spacetime, but requires a lot of energy and very specifc conditions to do it, perhaps sometimes it partially exists in our 4 dimensions, and so can be sensed by some equipment and our eyes, but not in any detail. Perhaps in the future we not only identify dark matter but also are able to manipulate it, creating things that are mostly undetectable (prerequiste for backwards time travel) but sometimes it goes a bit wrong and can be detected. Who knows, these are just two options based only on our current understanding of physics. It would be naicve to assume that there is technology, either present or future, we cannot comprehend/understand/foresee.
Agree 100% and think your theory is a distinct possibility.
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Re: I'm not buying it

Post by bedlam » March 26th 2024, 2:08am

jason_recliner wrote:
March 25th 2024, 6:40pm
bedlam wrote:
March 25th 2024, 5:15pm
I get Netlfix at 4K but these docos breathlessly present the same old ultra-grainy, can't-see-anything-really footage. I can see the individual roof-tiles on my house on google-earth but nothing genuinely discernible is ever available when it comes to UFO's.

The footage you see of the Loch Ness 'monster' is better than the UFO trash.
But it's video of something, it's not nothing. What could it be?

If something exists primarily in dimension beyond spacetime, but requires a lot of energy and very specifc conditions to do it, perhaps sometimes it partially exists in our 4 dimensions, and so can be sensed by some equipment and our eyes, but not in any detail. Perhaps in the future we not only identify dark matter but also are able to manipulate it, creating things that are mostly undetectable (prerequiste for backwards time travel) but sometimes it goes a bit wrong and can be detected. Who knows, these are just two options based only on our current understanding of physics. It would be naive to assume that there is not technology, either present or future, we cannot comprehend/understand/foresee.
Sure, but incredible claims need evidence to support them.

Nothing I (can't really) see in these pics points to that as yet - it's just another recycling of the shittiest possible footage of maybe something that wasn't convincing the last time either.
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Re: I'm not buying it

Post by jason_recliner » March 26th 2024, 4:07am

bedlam wrote:
March 26th 2024, 2:08am
jason_recliner wrote:
March 25th 2024, 6:40pm
bedlam wrote:
March 25th 2024, 5:15pm
I get Netlfix at 4K but these docos breathlessly present the same old ultra-grainy, can't-see-anything-really footage. I can see the individual roof-tiles on my house on google-earth but nothing genuinely discernible is ever available when it comes to UFO's.

The footage you see of the Loch Ness 'monster' is better than the UFO trash.
But it's video of something, it's not nothing. What could it be?

If something exists primarily in dimension beyond spacetime, but requires a lot of energy and very specifc conditions to do it, perhaps sometimes it partially exists in our 4 dimensions, and so can be sensed by some equipment and our eyes, but not in any detail. Perhaps in the future we not only identify dark matter but also are able to manipulate it, creating things that are mostly undetectable (prerequiste for backwards time travel) but sometimes it goes a bit wrong and can be detected. Who knows, these are just two options based only on our current understanding of physics. It would be naive to assume that there is not technology, either present or future, we cannot comprehend/understand/foresee.
Sure, but incredible claims need evidence to support them.

Nothing I (can't really) see in these pics points to that as yet - it's just another recycling of the shittiest possible footage of maybe something that wasn't convincing the last time either.
So no theories on what the military saw and 'sensed'?
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Re: I'm not buying it

Post by codguy » March 26th 2024, 5:46am

bedlam wrote:
March 25th 2024, 5:25pm

ASDA do a range of 50 something vegan products under the title 'Plant-Based' - (tofu burgers, etc). This is one of those products and it just means it meets a standard they set for organic/vegan/etc production methods that are applied to processed food.
If you avoid all context and just recirculate ignorant people's memes you can laugh at others and feel better about yourself, I guess.

You sir guessed correctly. I do feel better when I ridicule people and companies that support this insanity.
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Re: I'm not buying it

Post by bedlam » March 26th 2024, 5:37pm

jason_recliner wrote:
March 26th 2024, 4:07am
bedlam wrote:
March 26th 2024, 2:08am
jason_recliner wrote:
March 25th 2024, 6:40pm


But it's video of something, it's not nothing. What could it be?

If something exists primarily in dimension beyond spacetime, but requires a lot of energy and very specifc conditions to do it, perhaps sometimes it partially exists in our 4 dimensions, and so can be sensed by some equipment and our eyes, but not in any detail. Perhaps in the future we not only identify dark matter but also are able to manipulate it, creating things that are mostly undetectable (prerequiste for backwards time travel) but sometimes it goes a bit wrong and can be detected. Who knows, these are just two options based only on our current understanding of physics. It would be naive to assume that there is not technology, either present or future, we cannot comprehend/understand/foresee.
Sure, but incredible claims need evidence to support them.

Nothing I (can't really) see in these pics points to that as yet - it's just another recycling of the shittiest possible footage of maybe something that wasn't convincing the last time either.
So no theories on what the military saw and 'sensed'?
RC aircraft, drones, flares, balloons, hallucinations after week old curry leftovers the night before, straight-out BS stories to impress others...etc
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Re: I'm not buying it

Post by jason_recliner » March 26th 2024, 6:01pm

bedlam wrote:
March 26th 2024, 5:37pm
jason_recliner wrote:
March 26th 2024, 4:07am
bedlam wrote:
March 26th 2024, 2:08am

Sure, but incredible claims need evidence to support them.

Nothing I (can't really) see in these pics points to that as yet - it's just another recycling of the shittiest possible footage of maybe something that wasn't convincing the last time either.
So no theories on what the military saw and 'sensed'?
RC aircraft, drones, flares, balloons, hallucinations after week old curry leftovers the night before, straight-out BS stories to impress others...etc
I think drone/RC is the most likely, but the tech is way more advanced than publicly known (if analyses of the movements are correct). Points to some very significant advances in materials and possibly also propulsion, IMO. And, if USA craft, interesting that it's so secret that footage has been released through government channels that seem not to know anything about it and that it's top secret!
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Re: I'm not buying it

Post by jason_recliner » April 13th 2024, 5:30pm

USA is known to have been working on anti-gravity for several decades. I understand that minor reductions in mass (up to approx 2%) using superconductors were achieved in the lab in the late 90s / early 2000s, and published. If that's what is known to the public, the classified progress may be far, far beyond this. Advanced anti-gravity could possibly explain the lack of visible propulsion systems and lift generating surfaces, and the acceleration seemingly at odds with established physics.
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Re: I'm not buying it

Post by smellody » April 13th 2024, 5:50pm

jason_recliner wrote:
April 13th 2024, 5:30pm
USA is known to have been working on anti-gravity for several decades. I understand that minor reductions in mass (up to approx 2%) using superconductors were achieved in the lab in the late 90s / early 2000s, and published. If that's what is known to the public, the classified progress may be far, far beyond this. Advanced anti-gravity could possibly explain the lack of visible propulsion systems and lift generating surfaces, and the acceleration seemingly at odds with established physics.
This would be amazing. I don't have confidence that we figured that out ourselves. Although we may have it now, I'm sure it was borrowed or delivered to us.
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Re: I'm not buying it

Post by jason_recliner » April 13th 2024, 8:44pm

smellody wrote:
April 13th 2024, 5:50pm
jason_recliner wrote:
April 13th 2024, 5:30pm
USA is known to have been working on anti-gravity for several decades. I understand that minor reductions in mass (up to approx 2%) using superconductors were achieved in the lab in the late 90s / early 2000s, and published. If that's what is known to the public, the classified progress may be far, far beyond this. Advanced anti-gravity could possibly explain the lack of visible propulsion systems and lift generating surfaces, and the acceleration seemingly at odds with established physics.
This would be amazing. I don't have confidence that we figured that out ourselves. Although we may have it now, I'm sure it was borrowed or delivered to us.
What I read and watched would suggest we worked it out ourselves. i.e. lots of work just to get a tiny effect in controlled lab environment. But yeah, who knows? I would only know a tiny fraction of the work undertaken so far and what they've really achieved.
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Re: I'm not buying it

Post by WIStful » April 13th 2024, 9:46pm

I would mot doubt at all that some small effect was hypothesized and observed. And by small effect, maybe by subatomic particles with a duration if micriseconds

Theory behind gravity is more commonly known as General Relativity and it is a very deep, dense, and mathematically complex body of work even by the standards of physics.

There is lots of counterintuitive stuff predicted by Theory of Gravity/ General Relativity. Some has been proven, like light bends due to gravity. This effect was observed long ago, but nothing useful has come out if it yet.

My shoot from the hip guess would be some conservation principle, like conservation of angular momentum, make something spin here, it makes something spin with equal angular momentum elsewhere

Another guess would be some relativistic effect.

Again would not surprise me and experimental physicists when they have funding chase after theoretical predictions for long periods of time. 40 year effort to detect Higgs Boson after theory predicted it.

And no practical application has yet arisen.

Special relativity predicts time dilation, again demonstrated long ago, no practical application of that yet even though it wiuld be as useful as antigravity. OTOH, special relativity relativity also gave us e=mc^2. And we got nuclear power and weapons from that, fission and fusion, fusion for weapons only so far, practical power generation from fusion is a meme, always 20 years off.

Anyhow wouldnt surprise me a bit if some effect was demonstrated that has been long predicted by General Relativity which has been published a century ago.

But highly doubt anywhere near a practical application of it
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Re: I'm not buying it

Post by jason_recliner » April 13th 2024, 11:15pm

Time dilation is accounted for by GPS satellites so we do use it. Higgs boson gives matter mass so maybe it needs to be manipulated for anti-gravity (2% mass reduction is significant IMO). Perhaps anti-gravity works more in quantum gravity. If some mass reduction was achieved in a lab 20-30 years ago, I probably can't comprehend what teams of people much, much more intelligent than me have achieved in the ensuing years.
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Re: I'm not buying it

Post by WIStful » April 14th 2024, 12:55am

That is interesting about GPS. I would not have guessed it significant but the yeah the necessary accuracy etc.

TBH I was thinking more of something that would give one an extra day or two to meet a looming deadline.

I have been out of brainiac stuff for nearly 25 years myself, but it really seems like if there has been potentially useful antigravity stuff, kinda hard to keep that secret.
L

At least US government. All our important technology secrets with military potential all end up getting sold, uniform trend since WWII. From Manhattan Project through Toshiba to everything China has gotten from national labs in recent years

Been out of security establisment longer but constant lament during Cold War years was USA couldn't keep anything secret indefinitely, always ended up sold. Cant imagine it has gotten any better since.


But maybe we do have antigravity hovercraft zipping around Area 51. It is possible, just seems improbable.

Thanks for the GPS tip, didnt know that
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Re: I'm not buying it

Post by jason_recliner » April 14th 2024, 1:15am

WIStful wrote:
April 14th 2024, 12:55am
... it really seems like if there has been potentially useful antigravity stuff, kinda hard to keep that secret.
...

... constant lament during Cold War years was USA couldn't keep anything secret indefinitely, always ended up sold. Cant imagine it has gotten any better since.
Stealth (F117a) was kept secret, mostly, for some 20 years. There were sightings, as well as other stealth and experimental craft - some thought they were UFOs. If the tic-tac et al are experimental, possibly anti-gravity, they have been kept mostly secret apart from some sightings, with some people thinking they are UFOs...
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Re: I'm not buying it

Post by WIStful » April 14th 2024, 1:53am

Fair enough. Definitely seen chatter that USG encouraged belief in UFOs at least episodically since 50s to cover for various aerospace stuff. And I will say the recent coy hints, nondenials, and suggestions about UFOs and aliens coming out of USG in recent years about aliens, UFOs, and force fields from UFOs in government possession causing biological harm/ death has made me wonder if they are covering for wunderwaffen if some sort.


But at same time, the F-35 development does not suggest an industrial establishment capable of knocking out practical antigravity vehicles.


The Russian hypersonic stuff seemed to surprise everyone.

I guess you never really know. I was on a submarine cold war days and we were well versed/experienced on our boat from previous missions in identifying and tracking soviet subs. One time we went out with some developmental sonar stuff and the tech guys with it to test in our usual areas for good basis of comparison and the improvement may as well have been an antigravity machine.

I may end up agreeing with you fwiw.


One thing problem I fo believe that is going to get cracked sooner than later is consistent sub detection at a distance by some combination of sea surface analysis, lasers, and acoustic data. AI and massive processing power seems to bring it all together in a way that subs will lise their cloak of invisibility pretty soon. We put a lot of effort into detecting neutrinos from reactors back in the day but that seemed to go nowhere.


The other stuff showed promise but weak computers and lack of AI style pattern recognition were missing.

There have apparently been a suspicious event or two recently that suggests China is working on things along these lines, some purported blue green laser event off Hawaii in 2023 saw some chatter on.

Not sure what to think about tic tac stuff. My limited reading said it has been all on electronic sensors not visuals but I don't know if that is accurate.


I did read one report of a sub detecting via passive sonar, which is only listening, hearing something underwater go by at 600 knots or so, some outlandish speed. Seems documented/attested to enough that they got the acoustic data that sounded like a noise going by that fast but sound does weird stuff in the ocean. Could have been just a rare combination of factors.

They eagerly haul these guys in front of congress saying yeah we have ufos and alien bodies stacked away somewhere, everyone is quivering in anticipation, then the line goes dead. Could be true, and could be the USG wants to gaslight Russians and Chinese about our capabilities.

I tend to believe the latter, but admit it is possible. I would put more faith in the former if any of the recent revelations git backed up by an actual ufo or alien body rather than everyone telling the stories to an eager congress then nothing gets followed up on.


Caspar Weinberger pretty much admitted that all the Soviet sub sightings and detections around Sweden in the 80s other than the initial one of a grounded Soviet boat were US and UK subs acting in conjunction with Swedish military.

The Swedish defense establishment was pro western while the civilian government was at best ambivalent and these ops apparently had the intent to stiffen anti Soviet feeling in the Swedish public and they did cause a lot of hysteria.

Disclaimer it is ok for me to mention the sonar stuff we did because it is described in an unclassified unit citation we received.
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Re: I'm not buying it

Post by jason_recliner » April 14th 2024, 2:20am

It's hard to know what to think, what evidence is credible. Not sure what you did on subs but it's possible you wouldn't be aware of advanced CIA/DARPA submarine/aquatic tech, even though you were working in the field. The pilots who filmed the tic-tac and others didn't seem to be aware of what they might be, if they were US tech at all. I'm not saying it's anti-gravity tech, it's just one possibility. It's more likely than extraterrestrial or time travelling craft, IMO, if far from likely. But there's things flying/hovering/appearing around, they aren't nothing, whatever they are is extremely intriguing, to me at least.
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Re: I'm not buying it

Post by jason_recliner » April 14th 2024, 2:40am

WIStful wrote:
April 14th 2024, 2:37am
Our messages crossed paths. I was on a boat that did developmental stuff frequently. We did a lot with SEALs and SDVs that is now commonplace in the fleet. Odd ball boat.
Oh, wow! What a cool job! Bet you've worked on some great projects.
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Re: I'm not buying it

Post by WIStful » April 14th 2024, 3:01am

jason_recliner wrote:
April 14th 2024, 2:40am
WIStful wrote:
April 14th 2024, 2:37am
Our messages crossed paths. I was on a boat that did developmental stuff frequently. We did a lot with SEALs and SDVs that is now commonplace in the fleet. Odd ball boat.
Oh, wow! What a cool job! Bet you've worked on some great projects.
The military has a way of taking things that seems cool as hell and making it into an unendurable misery. Ask codguy. COD= Carrier Onboard Delivery, spent his time taking off and landing on carriers, something I have never done, sounds awesome as anything, but I am going to guess the life could suck badly at times.


Just the nature of the beast. It is a lot cooler in anticipation and retrospect than in the moment usually. The SEALs didn't like it at all, they wanted to be jumping out of airplanes not fending off hypothermia and hoping the sub didnt get you killed during launch and recovery. The sub crew hated the ops as well because of arduous ship depth etc control so as to not kill guys outside the boat.

Which happened back then but not to us. Systems are way better now so lots safer and all the boats are now equipped to be able to mount a dry dock shelter and launch and recover SEAL teams. And lots more institutional knowledge in SEAL establishment.
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