I love America, I love Americans, I really do, but...

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Re: I love America, I love Americans, I really do, but...

Post by Mark1 » October 17th 2022, 6:08pm

In this article, Greenwald says that Tuckers attorneys used this defense a year later. There is even an inference of precedent from the Maddow case.

https://greenwald.substack.com/p/a-cour ... ws-viewers
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Re: I love America, I love Americans, I really do, but...

Post by jason_recliner » October 17th 2022, 8:02pm

bbattle wrote:
October 17th 2022, 4:00pm
IIRC, most of these crazy-high judgement awards are greatly lowered or even overturned on appeal.
Like when that hobo sued the Itchy and Scratchy animators for $800 billion.
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Re: I love America, I love Americans, I really do, but...

Post by Hawk » October 17th 2022, 9:06pm

Mark1 wrote:
October 17th 2022, 6:08pm
In this article, Greenwald says that Tuckers attorneys used this defense a year later. There is even an inference of precedent from the Maddow case.

https://greenwald.substack.com/p/a-cour ... ws-viewers
Hence my suggestion to check the transcripts and not rely on third party analysis (mine included).

Tucker’s first segment on the matter was 2018. Maddow riding the Sputnik stick horse was 2019.

Maddow’s also settled a year after Tucker’s but OAN had appealed.

I believe you’ll find the transcripts bear me out. Neither precedent nor pioneer is strictly accurate.

I’m happy enough to rely on transcripts and calendars without bringing up Greenwald’s sympathies but honesty would compel me to admit I treat him with presumptive disbelief in matters even tangentially related to charges of Russian propaganda. I don’t think that bias steered me this time simply because I didn’t know he had stuck in his two cents until you informed me.

I can still be corrected and revise my opinion based on actual dates and transcripts but Greenwald, well, not so much. It’s not like I’m the only guy to have noticed breaks in his objectivity.

https://unherd.com/thepost/ukraine-gove ... agandists/
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Re: I love America, I love Americans, I really do, but...

Post by Hawk » October 17th 2022, 9:20pm

bbattle wrote:
October 17th 2022, 4:00pm
IIRC, most of these crazy-high judgement awards are greatly lowered or even overturned on appeal.
Very probably so but I couldn’t find much in the way of history. First thing is that an appeals court would have to hear the case and I’m clueless on those odds.

There seems to be more in the way of reducing awards through bankruptcy courts rather than appeals courts but we’re in uncharted territory with that award.

The closest thing I can recall is the civil judgment against OJ Simpson and that doesn’t help because I forgot how it played out.
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Re: I love America, I love Americans, I really do, but...

Post by bobbee » October 18th 2022, 1:29am

You can't measure the pain and suffering of the victims and families with dollar amounts, but thundercunts like Alex Jones need to know they can't multiply that suffering with impunity.
Bankruptcy forever for him and his ilk could never stop the suffering, but hopefully it can help.
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Re: I love America, I love Americans, I really do, but...

Post by 3Flushes » October 25th 2022, 4:04am

jason_recliner wrote:
October 24th 2022, 6:29pm
At the risk of continuing to miss the point...

$2.75 trillion!!!

Seems reasonable, I guess.
The jury's $965 million dollar verdict for compensatory damages also included the finding that the plaintiffs are additionally entitled to punitive damages. Judges determine the amount of punitive damages in Connecticut.

$2.75 trillion was merely a suggestion from the plaintiffs who offered several formulations in asking the judge to award them the maximum possible amount allowable. Jones' lawyers have filed motions for a new trial and for a reduction of the compensatory damages which are comprised of 15 separate awards ranging $28.8 million to $120 million.

Given Jones was found to have unlawfully profited by the sale of Info Wars licensed merchandise and otherwise soliciting funds using statements he knew to be false, Jones could be held liable in punitive damages for up to $5,000 per exposure of a false statement which has been estimated to be 550 million exposures between IW's site, and their Facebook and Twitter accounts.

With punitive damages in the millions tacked on, the total damages are likely to range in the $100's of millions regardless of any reduction. Given the value of Info Wars and its parent company are estimated to be worth between $130 and $270 million, Jones will likely be left with barely a subsistence income.

The plaintiffs have a long journey ahead before they'll be enforcing any judgments but Jones will be hemorrhaging legal fees to the end of the road . And given his egregious actions, I suspect he won't be receiving much leniency from judges in the trial, bankruptcy, or appellate courts. By the time Jones pays his lawyers off he probably won't be able to rent a room at the Y as the plaintiffs split up whatever money and assets that are ultimately to be set aside by the courts.

Reasonable indeed. Very.
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Re: I love America, I love Americans, I really do, but...

Post by jason_recliner » October 26th 2022, 1:01am

3Flushes wrote:
October 25th 2022, 4:04am
jason_recliner wrote:
October 24th 2022, 6:29pm
At the risk of continuing to miss the point...

$2.75 trillion!!!

Seems reasonable, I guess.
The jury's $965 million dollar verdict for compensatory damages also included the finding that the plaintiffs are additionally entitled to punitive damages. Judges determine the amount of punitive damages in Connecticut.

$2.75 trillion was merely a suggestion from the plaintiffs who offered several formulations in asking the judge to award them the maximum possible amount allowable. Jones' lawyers have filed motions for a new trial and for a reduction of the compensatory damages which are comprised of 15 separate awards ranging $28.8 million to $120 million.

Given Jones was found to have unlawfully profited by the sale of Info Wars licensed merchandise and otherwise soliciting funds using statements he knew to be false, Jones could be held liable in punitive damages for up to $5,000 per exposure of a false statement which has been estimated to be 550 million exposures between IW's site, and their Facebook and Twitter accounts.

With punitive damages in the millions tacked on, the total damages are likely to range in the $100's of millions regardless of any reduction. Given the value of Info Wars and its parent company are estimated to be worth between $130 and $270 million, Jones will likely be left with barely a subsistence income.

The plaintiffs have a long journey ahead before they'll be enforcing any judgments but Jones will be hemorrhaging legal fees to the end of the road . And given his egregious actions, I suspect he won't be receiving much leniency from judges in the trial, bankruptcy, or appellate courts. By the time Jones pays his lawyers off he probably won't be able to rent a room at the Y as the plaintiffs split up whatever money and assets that are ultimately to be set aside by the courts.

Reasonable indeed. Very.
All good points and well reasoned. I think they missed a trick not going for a gazillion dollars. Or maybe a googol dollars - all the dollars in the observable universe.
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Re: I love America, I love Americans, I really do, but...

Post by 3Flushes » October 27th 2022, 2:24am

jason_recliner wrote:
October 26th 2022, 1:01am
... I think they missed a trick not going for a gazillion dollars. Or maybe a googol dollars - all the dollars in the observable universe.
Why, by the time all of the cases are adjudicated I think you may well be correct, by golly.
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Re: I love America, I love Americans, I really do, but...

Post by Hawk » October 27th 2022, 4:26pm

The compensatory damages, at their core, were based on a very modest amount. Specifically one American dollar per lie delivered. What blew it up is that Jones’ reach is orders of magnitude greater than it could have been prior to the disinformation age. Applying the same formula to a pre-internet Jones using a mimeograph machine the award may not have even cracked six figures.

Also in the before times the thousands of dumfuqs believing his bullshit would have had to expend considerably more energy tracking down the victims and would be stuck with hand written snail mail and opaque unlisted numbers. Most notably the dumfuqs wouldn’t have an easy way of sharing their dumfuqedness among themselves. One guy tracking down the victims would be one guy rather than millions. And these douch nozzles are more than happy to take action based on lies.

We can’t very well put the internet back in the barn so we would have to reduce the single dollar to a penny or deplatform liars that fuck up other’s lives. Neither is an attractive option.

We don’t have hate speech laws, we don’t have the option of telling Murdoch to fold his tent and vacate the country.

Seems to me that the only option we have is bankrupting those that abuse their platforms. And then only if we can prove they were lying, knew they were lying AND fucked up the lives of innocent people.
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Re: I love America, I love Americans, I really do, but...

Post by jason_recliner » October 30th 2022, 11:17pm

To put things into some sort of perspective:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-10-31/ ... /101597444

US$36,000,000 between two men who suffered a lifetime of hurt and damage in prison. Seems a little low to me given that one is dead and one too old to enjoy it. But probably close to reasonable damages for two lives more or less wholly lost. Compared to $2,750,000,000,000 for a hundred or so familes who have suffered the pain of offensive broadcasts and the associated damages and losses.

I'm gonna keep missing the point.
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Re: I love America, I love Americans, I really do, but...

Post by Hawk » October 31st 2022, 2:24pm

Sometimes, not always but sometimes, it seems you don’t so much miss the point as actively avoid it. In this case the difference between an agreed payment of a specific amount and a theoretical amount with no agreement to pay it or any portion.

The 36 million will actually change hands. The trillion dollar award hasn’t even happened and thus far the 900 million hasn’t seen one damn nickel get paid.

The 36 million is 36 million. The trillion is vapor.

How about we reconvene in a year or two to assess the payments? It’s possible the Sandy Hook plaintiffs will have collected 36 million or more but I’ll wager it will be still a matter of contention with little actual money.

We could wager a bottle. My Suntori single malt against something of your choosing - just not Purple Death.
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Re: I love America, I love Americans, I really do, but...

Post by jason_recliner » October 31st 2022, 3:55pm

Hawk wrote:
October 31st 2022, 2:24pm
Sometimes, not always but sometimes, it seems you don’t so much miss the point as actively avoid it. In this case the difference between an agreed payment of a specific amount and a theoretical amount with no agreement to pay it or any portion.

The 36 million will actually change hands. The trillion dollar award hasn’t even happened and thus far the 900 million hasn’t seen one damn nickel get paid.

The 36 million is 36 million. The trillion is vapor.

How about we reconvene in a year or two to assess the payments? It’s possible the Sandy Hook plaintiffs will have collected 36 million or more but I’ll wager it will be still a matter of contention with little actual money.

We could wager a bottle. My Suntori single malt against something of your choosing - just not Purple Death.
Image

:mrgreen:
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Re: I love America, I love Americans, I really do, but...

Post by jason_recliner » October 31st 2022, 4:58pm

Hawk wrote:
October 31st 2022, 4:12pm
It’s on!
Hahaha! Sweeet! Unfortunately the legendary and iconic NT Draught seems to no longer be in production (this country's stuffed!).

I got carried away at a wine tasting a few weeks ago and bought a bunch of reds from Molly Dooker, and would be happy to offer one up in exchange. I hate reneging on a bet, and there are some NT Draughts available at auction sites and so forth, but the youngest are now 7 years old and will be well past their prime (even in their prime it wasn't a great beer!). Would that be acceptable to you, sir?

https://mollydookerwines.com.au/

It's an interesting little winery putting out some pretty good wines. And not too far from my old stomping ground.

So, to clarify, the bet is that you win if the Sandy Hook families receive one cent less than 2.75 trillion dollars? Yeah, okay, you're on! Better send me your address...

Are you a shiraz or a merlot man?
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Re: I love America, I love Americans, I really do, but...

Post by conjurer » November 1st 2022, 8:00am

Ofcmark wrote:
November 1st 2022, 5:23am
Conjure
Old style was the big beer in my teenage years here In IL. It will be aways linked to the Cubs and drive-in theaters
It was real big in Chi when I was growing up, too. In college we used to call it "Dog Style," because it tasted like dog piss. I believe it was the first kind of beer I ever drank as a young shaver. I went over to hard liquor pretty quick.
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Re: I love America, I love Americans, I really do, but...

Post by Hawk » November 1st 2022, 12:36pm

jason_recliner wrote:
October 31st 2022, 4:58pm


So, to clarify, the bet is that you win if the Sandy Hook families receive one cent less than 2.75 trillion dollars? Yeah, okay, you're on! Better send me your address...

Are you a shiraz or a merlot man?
The proposed “over / under” amount is the 36 million. If at an agreed point a year or two hence the Sandy Hook plaintiffs have received less than 36 million total (after attorney fees) I win. If they receive a cumulative 36 million or more then you get a fifth of Suntory 12 year single malt.

If I prevail a bottle of anything you enjoy drinking will work. In the case of Merlot I would appreciate a Napa Valley - for reasons which escape me Napa is unique in not giving me heartburn. Oddly enough it seems any brand works so long as it derives from that location.

I suppose the 36 million breakpoint and the going rate for Suntory is sort of offering odds of a sort. The two year max limit (from today) gives me a bit of a chance.

Fair warning: Proper Japanese single malt can be addictive.


Edited to add: I may come to regret this. In checking Oz availability it seems you guys are either getting bent over the trestle or the AUD exchange rate is close to Vietnamese Dong.

https://thedrinksociety.com.au/collecti ... isky-700ml

Bet, of course, ends early and you get Suntory as soon it clears 36 mil. It won’t get reduced over time. And I’m a little worried about Ozian Suntory going up in price.
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Re: I love America, I love Americans, I really do, but...

Post by jason_recliner » November 1st 2022, 3:13pm

Jebus, can we not get too nuts? I'd rather the prize be a bottle I have already bouight if that's okay - trying to limit expenses coming in to Christmas and all that. Would be happy for you to do the same, no need for any hard stuff. Spirits are crazy expensive here, I don't bother with them any more other than gin. The Molly Dookers are around AUD$30 each, pretty sure the shiraz won't give you any troubles (McLaren Vale is one of the better shiraz regions in the world). If I win, something of similar value from your neck of the woods would be sweet.
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Re: I love America, I love Americans, I really do, but...

Post by Hawk » November 1st 2022, 6:12pm

I’ll concede that what you guys pay for Suntory 12 planted my jaw firmly on the floor.

At your discretion we can make it anything you like to drink which, fortunately for me, takes most of the Suntory line smooth off the table. (It’s only about 160 locally and it’s not something I do daily).

Also their Toki line is an especially nasty blend but priced accordingly - it’s what I found on the first several Oz stores I checked. S’not the same.

But back to the actual point: you might enjoy this from my favorite online legal beagle. It’s entertaining and more concise than I could manage. Also I didn’t know he overtly called on his followers to be assholes - I’m possibly being redundant here.

Meanwhile I’ll console myself tonight with a bit of McCallan 12 which I got without breaking 3 figures.

https://youtu.be/YI5orKCzz58
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Re: I love America, I love Americans, I really do, but...

Post by Hawk » November 1st 2022, 7:20pm

@underbar,

If you enjoyed the link above you might also be entertained by the preceding Alex Jones Texas trial.

I don’t know if incompetence on the part of a defense attorney increases the odds of an appeal working but I guess we’ll all find out eventually.

https://youtu.be/x-QcbOphxYs
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