70 years ago today - - Pearl Harbor

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Re: 70 years ago today - For those who have forgotten - Pearl Harbor

Post by DoctorIvey » December 7th 2011, 8:59am

We may have forced Japan into attacking, lied about how they did it, put innocent Americans into internment camps after stripping them of their land and businesses, and nuked thousands of innocent women and children, but [i]at least we were prepared to do what it took to win a war[/i]. Nowadays they would have mopped the floor with us, given how divided a nation we've become.
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Re: 70 years ago today - For those who have forgotten - Pearl Harbor

Post by koimaster » December 7th 2011, 11:49am

DoctorIvey wrote:We may have forced Japan into attacking, lied about how they did it, put innocent Americans into internment camps after stripping them of their land and businesses, and nuked thousands of innocent women and children, but [i]at least we were prepared to do what it took to win a war[/i]. Nowadays they would have mopped the floor with us, given how divided a nation we've become.



I am sure that we also forced them to set up rape camps, murder 100,000s of thousands of innocent civilians, torture or execute POWs, rape nurses who were also POWs. Fuck the Japs! I am old enough to remember visiting Pearl Harbor as a kid, New Zealand and China with my father in the 50s and the evidence of the Japs violence was everywhere. I saw the same in Europe where I lived from 1955-1959. Fuck the Krauts too.
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Re: 70 years ago today - For those who have forgotten - Pearl Harbor

Post by Hawk » December 7th 2011, 2:35pm

koimaster wrote:
DoctorIvey wrote:We may have forced Japan into attacking, lied about how they did it, put innocent Americans into internment camps after stripping them of their land and businesses, and nuked thousands of innocent women and children, but [i]at least we were prepared to do what it took to win a war[/i]. Nowadays they would have mopped the floor with us, given how divided a nation we've become.



I am sure that we also forced them to set up rape camps, murder 100,000s of thousands of innocent civilians, torture or execute POWs, rape nurses who were also POWs. Fuck the Japs! I am old enough to remember visiting Pearl Harbor as a kid, New Zealand and China with my father in the 50s and the evidence of the Japs violence was everywhere. I saw the same in Europe where I lived from 1955-1959. Fuck the Krauts too.


Yeah, well, it seems we share a generational outlook. But it was a long time ago and, quite possibly has the approximate relevance of the Trail of Tears, My Lai or wtf ever. Nevertheless, non-revisionist history is a good thing to know and I commend you (and gratuitously pat my own self on the back) for not taking the bait when our home-grown Nanking denier manifested himself.

Putting aside history in the interest of, for lack of a better word, "harmony" is one thing. Denying it ever happened is quite another. I have first person accounts of Japanese racism resulting in rape and murder but it was long enough ago I'm inclined to believe it's time to re-examine things in the context of 2011. I tend to entertain a personal belief that the Japanese were raping and murdering Chinese well after we stopped lynching African Americans - but not by enough to really matter.

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Re: 70 years ago today - For those who have forgotten - Pearl Harbor

Post by conjurer » December 7th 2011, 4:14pm

I have to disagree, Hawk; our dick was pretty golden in WWII. It's really not fair to compare the appalling instances of lynching in America to the Imperial Japanese military, who issued orders to horribly abuse POWs, murder hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians, test poison gas and biologic weapons on the Chinese, ignore all the civilized rules of war, launch sneak attacks on neutral nations, and order their own soldiers, pilots and marines--fighting men who showed unimaginable courage and skill--to kill themselves for their imbecile Emperor.

Certainly, Roosevelt probably forced the Japanese's hand with his economic embargoes, especially of scrap metal--but this was a geo-political expedient of the horrific Japanese conquest of China.
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Re: 70 years ago today - For those who have forgotten - Pearl Harbor

Post by Tzimisces » December 7th 2011, 5:22pm

DoctorIvey wrote:We may have forced Japan into attacking, lied about how they did it, put innocent Americans into internment camps after stripping them of their land and businesses, and nuked thousands of innocent women and children, but [i]at least we were prepared to do what it took to win a war[/i]. Nowadays they would have mopped the floor with us, given how divided a nation we've become.

This is one of the dumbest posts I've seen on any forum.

The US did not force the Japs to attack Pearl Harbor. The critical resource that led to war was oil, after the US embargo Japan was left with enough to operate their fleet for about 6 months, and perhaps less. The oil Japan coveted was in the Dutch East Indies. The head of the General Staff of the Japanese Navy (Admiral Nagano) wanted to grab that oil while leaving the Americans alone, calculating that Roosevelt would find it difficult to persuade America to go to war for Dutch colonies. Admiral Yamamoto forced the Pearl Harbor operation on the reluctant general staff, a move that would have been impossible in the US but under Japan's disfunctional military junior officers had influence beyond their rank. So no, Japan was not forced to attack the US. Besides, the US embargo (today it would be called "sanctions" and is considered a preferable tactic to war) was in response to Japanese aggression in China and South East Asia. Why should the US be "forced" to sell strategic materials to an aggressor nation? What a ridiculous thing to believe.

How did the US "lie about how they did it"? Roosevelt, in his "Day of Infamy" speech, claimed the US was "suddenly and deliberately attacked by air and naval forces of the Empire of Japan". Is that not true?

The morality of the nuclear bombs falls under the wider subject of "strategic bombing" which included the deliberate targeting of cities. There is no easy answer for this debate, but under the concept of total industrial war civilian workers were legitimate targets, and besides, Japan's war industry was decentralized, with much work being done in small shops in population centers. To attack Japan's ability to wage war, you attack Japanese cities. Don't forget, either, that Japan could have surrendered at any time, sparing their own people the horror. It was not the responsibility of the US to protect Japan, that falls on Japan's wartime leadership.

The internment camps are certainly a blot on American honor, but even here, if we consider the historical context, it was relatively mild. I don't mean to make light of the suffering, but the Japanese/Americans were not killed or worked to death, unlike the unfortunate people who fell under Japanese control. Further, the camps were controversial even then, and many spoke up about the injustice. At least here you have a point.

Japan "mop the floor" with the US? Yeah, I remember after 9/11 how divided the US was. This point is just idiotic.

Edit: Somehow I failed to comment on the part in bold, in which you seem to think that a country should not do what it takes to win a war. It's nice that some people value all human life equally, always, regardless of circumstances. For your part, you should realize that it is also nice to have people who "do what it takes", when everything is on the line. In the Spring/Summer of 1945, I wouldn't have traded one American for 100,000 Japanese. The human cost of US policy is well known, and terrible for the relative innocents involved. It resulted, however, in the utter disgrace of the brutal leadership that had led Japan down such a destructive path. They bear the blame for the horror, for they started it, and insisted on continuing long after the outcome was decided. Had they accepted Potsdam, none of the subsequent deaths would have occurred.
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Re: 70 years ago today - For those who have forgotten - Pearl Harbor

Post by Hawk » December 8th 2011, 1:25am

conjurer wrote:I have to disagree, Hawk; our dick was pretty golden in WWII. It's really not fair to compare the appalling instances of lynching in America to the Imperial Japanese military, who issued orders to horribly abuse POWs, murder hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians, test poison gas and biologic weapons on the Chinese, ignore all the civilized rules of war, launch sneak attacks on neutral nations, and order their own soldiers, pilots and marines--fighting men who showed unimaginable courage and skill--to kill themselves for their imbecile Emperor.

Certainly, Roosevelt probably forced the Japanese's hand with his economic embargoes, especially of scrap metal--but this was a geo-political expedient of the horrific Japanese conquest of China.


It's not much of a disagreement if we're agreed on the general facts of the matter which would appear to be the case.

The relative gold of dicks is more of a personal outlook and not easily argued in an objective sense. To be honest we were probably 100% in agreement three years ago and the only thing that's shifted my opinion is the observation that the aggrieved parties seem to have gotten past it for the most part (all personal and anecdotal). Further they seem to have put it behind them without forgetting or denying the historical facts of the matter. I hold Nanking deniers in roughly the same contempt as I do holocaust deniers.
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Re: 70 years ago today - For those who have forgotten - Pearl Harbor

Post by conjurer » December 8th 2011, 4:41am

Hawk wrote:
conjurer wrote:I have to disagree, Hawk; our dick was pretty golden in WWII. It's really not fair to compare the appalling instances of lynching in America to the Imperial Japanese military, who issued orders to horribly abuse POWs, murder hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians, test poison gas and biologic weapons on the Chinese, ignore all the civilized rules of war, launch sneak attacks on neutral nations, and order their own soldiers, pilots and marines--fighting men who showed unimaginable courage and skill--to kill themselves for their imbecile Emperor.

Certainly, Roosevelt probably forced the Japanese's hand with his economic embargoes, especially of scrap metal--but this was a geo-political expedient of the horrific Japanese conquest of China.


It's not much of a disagreement if we're agreed on the general facts of the matter which would appear to be the case.

The relative gold of dicks is more of a personal outlook and not easily argued in an objective sense. To be honest we were probably 100% in agreement three years ago and the only thing that's shifted my opinion is the observation that the aggrieved parties seem to have gotten past it for the most part (all personal and anecdotal). Further they seem to have put it behind them without forgetting or denying the historical facts of the matter. I hold Nanking deniers in roughly the same contempt as I do holocaust deniers.


Well said.
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Re: 70 years ago today - For those who have forgotten - Pearl Harbor

Post by bedlam » December 8th 2011, 5:37am

Tzimisces wrote:but under the concept of total industrial war civilian workers were legitimate targets


Utter bullshit.
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Re: 70 years ago today - For those who have forgotten - Pearl Harbor

Post by sandoz » December 8th 2011, 12:01pm

No excuse for death marches, germ warfare and medical atrocities, systemic torture and starvation of POWs, slave labor, murderous sneak attack during diplomatic discussion and a people that brought forth the leadership promoting all that crap. Its good that animosity for Japs continue extra-generationally. These crimes were so heinous that it makes me think that something rotten still exists in their culture. IMO, its gonna happen again.
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Re: 70 years ago today - For those who have forgotten - Pearl Harbor

Post by Tzimisces » December 8th 2011, 1:54pm

bedlam wrote:
Tzimisces wrote:but under the concept of total industrial war civilian workers were legitimate targets


Utter bullshit.


No, unfortunately, it was not "utter bullshit" during the war. Causing workers to lose their homes, and lives, was considered another way to reduce an enemy's productive capability. Modern sensibilities have changed, and civilian casualties are now considered immoral. That is a new concept in war, and not even universal. Civilians have ever been caught up in the general violence, and industrial war provided a new motivation. Besides, bombing accuracy was so poor in WW2 that any military or industrial target in or near a city would inevitably kill civilians. This was known, and accepted, though to be sure some questioned the morality.
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Re: 70 years ago today - For those who have forgotten - Pearl Harbor

Post by koimaster » December 8th 2011, 2:04pm

You need only look to the bombing of Dresden and the firebombing of Japan. The Germans attacked London, Liverpool and other cities using bombers, buzz bombs and the V2 rockets.
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Re: 70 years ago today - For those who have forgotten - Pearl Harbor

Post by Tzimisces » December 8th 2011, 5:55pm

koimaster wrote:You need only look to the bombing of Dresden and the firebombing of Japan. The Germans attacked London, Liverpool and other cities using bombers, buzz bombs and the V2 rockets.

Just so. I think we can all agree that war causes suffering. Nevertheless, a thread about Pearl Harbor is scarcely the place for discussing the morality of strategic bombing, or internment camps. December 7th should be for the remembrance of those who were killed in that sneak attack, and all those who were killed in the subsequent war.

My wife was in Honolulu last week, and visited Pearl Harbor (for me, I've never been). She said the whole presentation felt sad, not triumphant, and that is how it should be. Even now, 70 years later, she saw several elderly men and women quietly weeping at the wall that lists the victims. One man she talked to was a crew member on the Arizona, but was away when she blew up. For seventy years he has felt terrible guilt that so many of his friends died while he survived. One very old lady was laying flowers for her brother who was killed in the attack. She is the only person left alive who remembers him as anything but a name on an old photograph.

The film presentations had many first person accounts (oral histories), and the one that brought tears to many visitors was of a man describing how for many days after the attack they would block their ears when passing near the capsized Oklahoma, for they could hear the tapping from men who were still alive in her hull, but who were beyond any help. The tapping gradually faded over the days, then stopped.

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Re: 70 years ago today - For those who have forgotten - Pearl Harbor

Post by conjurer » December 8th 2011, 7:17pm

Tzimisces wrote:
koimaster wrote:You need only look to the bombing of Dresden and the firebombing of Japan. The Germans attacked London, Liverpool and other cities using bombers, buzz bombs and the V2 rockets.

Just so. I think we can all agree that war causes suffering. Nevertheless, a thread about Pearl Harbor is scarcely the place for discussing the morality of strategic bombing, or internment camps. December 7th should be for the remembrance of those who were killed in that sneak attack, and all those who were killed in the subsequent war.

My wife was in Honolulu last week, and visited Pearl Harbor (for me, I've never been). She said the whole presentation felt sad, not triumphant, and that is how it should be. Even now, 70 years later, she saw several elderly men and women quietly weeping at the wall that lists the victims. One man she talked to was a crew member on the Arizona, but was away when she blew up. For seventy years he has felt terrible guilt that so many of his friends died while he survived. One very old lady was laying flowers for her brother who was killed in the attack. She is the only person left alive who remembers him as anything but a name on an old photograph.

The film presentations had many first person accounts (oral histories), and the one that brought tears to many visitors was of a man describing how for many days after the attack they would block their ears when passing near the capsized Oklahoma, for they could hear the tapping from men who were still alive in her hull, but who were beyond any help. The tapping gradually faded over the days, then stopped.



This is a fitting and eloquent tribute to the day, Tz. Well said indeed.
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Re: 70 years ago today - For those who have forgotten - Pearl Harbor

Post by hawkeye » December 9th 2011, 4:44am

Some of you people to get the military channel and watch of the WW2 programming on there. The Vets who were there are now telling their stories and its being told thru film that was classified until the early 2000's.

I personally was home ported in Pearl while in the navy, as I have talked and listened to many vets of that time. Master Sgt Fiske, I met him in 85.He told me what he saw and I just soaked it all in. I met I forget his name back in my hometown in Iowa a guy who’s twin brother and himself was on the West Virginia. He made it and His brother didn’t met him at the doctors' office when I was there for a appt. I had my pearl harbor naval station hat on and he asked me if I was in the Navy and was in Hawaii. When I said yes, he smiled, and then told his story...which I listened to. I will post more on this But, I got to go to work.

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Re: 70 years ago today - For those who have forgotten - Pear

Post by Hawk » December 8th 2018, 6:25pm

koimaster wrote:Never forgotten by those of my generation


Nor mine. But realistically there's no way anyone 67 years of age can recall something from before birth.

I do believe we got more first hand accounts than most.

Also a nice reminder of how much TZ impacted me with re: further research. Of all the members we've lost I'd put TZ near the top - at least when it comes to reviewing history.

And, of course, the finest geekspeak EVAH.
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