Dievas Kampfschwimmer...

Micro-Brands discussed here
User avatar
codguy
ASSHAT
Posts: 8406
Joined: June 9th 2011, 10:00pm
Contact:

Re: Dievas Kampfschwimmer...

Post by codguy » September 24th 2014, 5:19am

Would be nice to get Unitas 6497 powered watches under 46mm.

And at least Dievas isn't hiding the fact it is a clone homage....

"The Dievas Vintage models are modelled using historic models. It is a very accurate tribute. From the case, crystal, crown, dial and hands down to the finest dial. No detail is spared. As historic models are getting more and more scarce, watch enthusiast can now own a piece of history."
http://www.dievaswatches.com/vintage-3646.html
Last edited by codguy on September 24th 2014, 5:32am, edited 2 times in total.
.

#LETSGOBRANDON

.
eddiea
Founding Member & Master of Time
Posts: 10649
Joined: December 25th 2009, 11:00pm

Re: Dievas Kampfschwimmer...

Post by eddiea » September 24th 2014, 5:26am

codguy wrote:Would be nice to get Unitas 6497 powered watches under 46mm.
And at least Dievas isn't hiding the fact it is a homage....
"The Dievas Vintage models are modelled using historic models. It is a very accurate tribute. From the case, crystal, crown, dial and hands down to the finest dial. No detail is spared. As historic models are getting more and more scarce, watch enthusiast can now own a piece of history."
http://www.dievaswatches.com/vintage-3646.html

Size is true to the original 3646 who was 47mm..... ;)
Image

Don'y think the watch was intended or is a "clone" as is clearly different from the caseback perspective in relation with the original, including the manufacturer name and origin etched on the caseback and Dievas signed crown....just a pretty nice homage in my book.
Image
Last edited by eddiea on September 24th 2014, 6:29am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
biglove
Watchlord WIS
Posts: 15127
Joined: October 27th 2013, 9:18am
Facebook ID: 0
Location: Louisiana
Contact:

Re: Dievas Kampfschwimmer...

Post by biglove » September 24th 2014, 6:08am

Eddie, like so many watches, I find the movement on that to be far more enticing to look at vs the dial proper. Wish someone would come up with some type of skeletonized watch that is actually well made and readable at a glance.

Have only had one skeletonized dial watch and even with the blue hands I couldn't tell time on the damned thing!
Last edited by biglove on September 24th 2014, 7:28am, edited 1 time in total.
My best friend from college shared his secret to his huge financial success, "I fell out of the right vagina."

"We should just sanction stupidity as our national pastime and be done with it."-TemerityB, WL Asshat
User avatar
Wasp
Senior Member & WIS
Posts: 3300
Joined: December 31st 2012, 11:00pm
Facebook ID: 0
Location: Zip Code: e-i-e-i-o
Contact:

Re: Dievas Kampfschwimmer...

Post by Wasp » September 24th 2014, 6:22am

Nice.
Some of the vintage models are visually appealing. The scratch test video shows me that it will hold up well to scratches. Dings and abrasive contacts on bricks or cementious type materials very possibly will reach the high carbon layer. Carbon oxidation stain spots are likely.
Cheers
Image
eddiea
Founding Member & Master of Time
Posts: 10649
Joined: December 25th 2009, 11:00pm

Re: Dievas Kampfschwimmer...

Post by eddiea » September 24th 2014, 6:25am

biglove wrote:Eddie, like so many watches, I find the movement on that to be far more enticing to look at vs the dial proper. Wish someone would come up with some type of skeletonize do watch that is actually well made and readable at a glance.
Have only had one skeletonized dial watch and even with the blue hands I couldn't tell time on the damned thing!


They did a good job with the fully decorated/blue screws movement, a joy to watch.... sandwich dial, is as classic vintage as they come .
eddiea
Founding Member & Master of Time
Posts: 10649
Joined: December 25th 2009, 11:00pm

Re: Dievas Kampfschwimmer...

Post by eddiea » September 24th 2014, 9:09am

conjurer wrote:That's certainly a nicer lookin Unitas than Panny put in the Brooklyn Bridge.

Yup... much better.
User avatar
AJC
Watchlord WIS
Posts: 6176
Joined: May 14th 2012, 10:00pm
Facebook ID: 0
Location: Delaware, United States
Contact:

Re: Dievas Kampfschwimmer...

Post by AJC » September 24th 2014, 9:25am

conjurer wrote:That's certainly a nicer lookin Unitas than Panny put in the Brooklyn Bridge.



I dunno... the chewed up plate edges on the BB PAM really added that little something you look for in a $7000 watch.
---
-ajc
hcharles
Watchlord WIS
Posts: 2579
Joined: March 4th 2012, 11:00pm
Facebook ID: 1081120685253371
Location: Snake River Valley
Contact:

Re: Dievas Kampfschwimmer...

Post by hcharles » September 24th 2014, 6:39pm

codguy wrote:Would be nice to get Unitas 6497 powered watches under 46mm.



Actually there is a watch with a 6498-1 watch under 46mm. I have an Accutron 65A102 that measures 42mm without the crown.
65A102_FLA.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Since light travels faster than sound, some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine. Abraham lincoln
eddiea
Founding Member & Master of Time
Posts: 10649
Joined: December 25th 2009, 11:00pm

Re: Dievas Kampfschwimmer...

Post by eddiea » September 25th 2014, 3:45am

hcharles wrote:
codguy wrote:Would be nice to get Unitas 6497 powered watches under 46mm.

Actually there is a watch with a 6498-1 watch under 46mm. I have an Accutron 65A102 that measures 42mm without the crown.[

They are many brands that make cases under 46mm, fitted with Unitas movements, this particular Panerai homage is 47mm to be (as stated above) true to the original 3646 Kampfschwimmer, who was 47mm when released back in the late 1930's, early 1940's ....
The size is directly related to the fact that the 3646 (in any configuration) was designed as a diver watch and visibility was paramount.
User avatar
3Flushes
ASSHAT & Master of Time
Posts: 9657
Joined: November 25th 2012, 11:00pm
Facebook ID: 0
Contact:

Re: Dievas Kampfschwimmer...

Post by 3Flushes » September 25th 2014, 11:46am

AJC wrote:
conjurer wrote:That's certainly a nicer lookin Unitas than Panny put in the Brooklyn Bridge.



I dunno... the chewed up plate edges on the BB PAM really added that little something you look for in a $7000 watch.

That's EXACTLY what you look for in a $5,000 watch; the the potential for it to become a $7,000 watch. As I recall, the original retail price was $4895.

With the cobb up your asses for the Bridge already. The watch has appreciated 30% + so far. How are you two doin' on the value of your collections, or investments for that matter?

The OP watch looks nicely made- homages aren't my thing.
^^^Copyright ©️ 2021 3flushes Media.^^^
User avatar
conjurer
ASSHAT & Master of Time
Posts: 33141
Joined: July 13th 2010, 10:00pm
Contact:

Re: Dievas Kampfschwimmer...

Post by conjurer » September 25th 2014, 12:04pm

3Flushes wrote:
AJC wrote:
conjurer wrote:That's certainly a nicer lookin Unitas than Panny put in the Brooklyn Bridge.



I dunno... the chewed up plate edges on the BB PAM really added that little something you look for in a $7000 watch.

That's EXACTLY what you look for in a $5,000 watch; the the potential for it to become a $7,000 watch.

With the cobb up your asses for the Bridge already. The watch has appreciated 30% so far. How are you two doing on the value of your collections, or investments for that matter?

The OP watch looks nicely made- homages aren't my thing.


I don't buy watches as investments, 3. I have a 401(k) manager who loses my money for me. I just find it interesting that the Paneristas like to hurry to Panny's defense when somebody brings up the (very ironically named) Brooklyn Bridge. I couldn't care less how much it cost new, or what it's bringing now on the secondary market. Panny pulled the same kind of stunt that we pillory the Lalo for. I don't care that Panny made it right in the end; I don't care that some people left the crappy, bog-standard movement in their BBs to make 'em more collectable. Panerai fucked up massively, and deserved to be called out on it now and then.

I'll get off my soapbox now. Thank you all!
eddiea
Founding Member & Master of Time
Posts: 10649
Joined: December 25th 2009, 11:00pm

Re: Dievas Kampfschwimmer...

Post by eddiea » September 25th 2014, 1:52pm

conjurer wrote:
3Flushes wrote:
AJC wrote:
conjurer wrote:That's certainly a nicer lookin Unitas than Panny put in the Brooklyn Bridge.

I dunno... the chewed up plate edges on the BB PAM really added that little something you look for in a $7000 watch.

That's EXACTLY what you look for in a $5,000 watch; the the potential for it to become a $7,000 watch.
With the cobb up your asses for the Bridge already. The watch has appreciated 30% so far. How are you two doing on the value of your collections, or investments for that matter?
The OP watch looks nicely made- homages aren't my thing.

I don't buy watches as investments, 3. I have a 401(k) manager who loses my money for me. I just find it interesting that the Paneristas like to hurry to Panny's defense when somebody brings up the (very ironically named) Brooklyn Bridge. I couldn't care less how much it cost new, or what it's bringing now on the secondary market. Panny pulled the same kind of stunt that we pillory the Lalo for. I don't care that Panny made it right in the end; I don't care that some people left the crappy, bog-standard movement in their BBs to make 'em more collectable. Panerai fucked up massively, and deserved to be called out on it now and then.
I'll get off my soapbox now. Thank you all!

Couple thoughts ...
First the pictured watch that started the thread is not mine (yet ;) ) I agree it is well made and althought I'm not into homages either , in this case is the only way to get the "look" of the 3646, considering that the 3646 hasn't been made for more than 70 years is no other way to get something similar at a decent price, unless of course I hit the lottery.
On the Brooklyn Bridge (PAM 318) I was under the impression that Richemon replaced all the movements? you think maybe that have influenced the appreciation a bit? because in all honesty, the original Unitas fitted to the 318 was, for lack of a better word... a disgrace.
Finally I have to agree with John, investment is not the first thing I think when it comes to watches and Richemont is not above scrutiny and criticism.
User avatar
conjurer
ASSHAT & Master of Time
Posts: 33141
Joined: July 13th 2010, 10:00pm
Contact:

Re: Dievas Kampfschwimmer...

Post by conjurer » September 25th 2014, 2:03pm

eddiea wrote:
conjurer wrote:
3Flushes wrote:
AJC wrote:
conjurer wrote:That's certainly a nicer lookin Unitas than Panny put in the Brooklyn Bridge.

I dunno... the chewed up plate edges on the BB PAM really added that little something you look for in a $7000 watch.

That's EXACTLY what you look for in a $5,000 watch; the the potential for it to become a $7,000 watch.
With the cobb up your asses for the Bridge already. The watch has appreciated 30% so far. How are you two doing on the value of your collections, or investments for that matter?
The OP watch looks nicely made- homages aren't my thing.

I don't buy watches as investments, 3. I have a 401(k) manager who loses my money for me. I just find it interesting that the Paneristas like to hurry to Panny's defense when somebody brings up the (very ironically named) Brooklyn Bridge. I couldn't care less how much it cost new, or what it's bringing now on the secondary market. Panny pulled the same kind of stunt that we pillory the Lalo for. I don't care that Panny made it right in the end; I don't care that some people left the crappy, bog-standard movement in their BBs to make 'em more collectable. Panerai fucked up massively, and deserved to be called out on it now and then.
I'll get off my soapbox now. Thank you all!

Couple thoughts ...
First the pictured watch that started the thread is not mine (yet ;) ) I agree it is well made and althought I'm not into homages either , in this case is the only way to get the "look" of the 3646, considering that the 3646 hasn't been made for more than 70 years is no other way to get something similar at a decent price, unless of course I hit the lottery.
On the Brooklyn Bridge (PAM 318) I was under the impression that Richemon replaced all the movements? you think maybe that have influenced the appreciation a bit? because in all honesty, the original Unitas fitted to the 318 was, for lack of a better word... a disgrace.
Finally I have to agree with John, investment is not the first thing I think when it comes to watches and Richemont is not above scrutiny and criticism.


From what I read, Eddie, the BB was sold out, and the movement fuckup wasn't discovered until an owner took the watch in for service. When word got out, more owners cracked open their watches to discover the basic Unitas $100 movement, rather than the specially decorated, regulated movement that Panny advertised. To give Panny (or Richemont) credit, they did offer to refund the purchase price or replace the movement with--well, with something their watchmakers actually worked on. Some owners took them up on this, others did not--possibly because it didn't matter to them, or more likely because, as 3Flushes says above, the BB would become a bit more collectable with the shitty movement inside.

I personally don't care one way or the other--the same way I really don't care when some Geek gets a shit watch from Invicta. It's just that a company like Panerai really has no moral defense over what they did, considering the prices they ask and the Luxe niche they trade upon.
User avatar
3Flushes
ASSHAT & Master of Time
Posts: 9657
Joined: November 25th 2012, 11:00pm
Facebook ID: 0
Contact:

Re: Dievas Kampfschwimmer...

Post by 3Flushes » September 25th 2014, 5:08pm

I think collectors do value rarity and appreciation. I always read a great deal from the flipper fraternity on this board regarding how this or that has held its' value, or money was made etc. Whether investment is a focus or not, it's cool to have purchased a watch that rises in value, whatever metric it strokes for the purchaser. I totally dig that I could double or better on my Maurice Lacroix watches, and that the models at the equivalent levels in the brand are selling for 4 + times the money they were selling for when I got interested in '97 or '98. Did I buy them in hopes of making money? Fuck no. Is it cool they have taken off and I made a good call about a brand who is unarguably currently producing the most innovative and artistic watches and in-house manufacture movements in the world for under a 75 G's? You bet.

The 318 was a travesty that if no one ever opened the damn things, would have remained so. It is hard to imagine what the jackasses were doing; watch buyers at the 5K level generally take better care of their watches than the masses and it was just a matter of time until one got serviced, or some collector Pannaresti guy wanted a pic of the cool BB Uni movement.

I have always wondered if it was somehow a slip in quality control... the assembler folks got the wrong movements and there wasn't time to wait for the right ones so they popped in the abbynormals and figured they'd issue a recall when the right ones arrived, or perhaps they didn't even notice, a crate showed up with movements in it marked for the BB so they popped them in like they always did, or maybe the right movements just weren't ready on time and they had to use the plain-jane roughcuts knowing the right stuff would eventually be available... or, I suppose there is the highly unlikely chance that a company of Pannarei's standing just decided to try to screw the public during a moment of drunken levity in the Board Room, and ironically as conj notes, decided to call the watch the Brooklyn Bridge. I don't know, but for whatever reason, bad judgement and evasiveness reigned over good sense and good business. Why tell the ugly truth if you can take a chance and dance? A travesty, yes indeedy.

A travesty made right such that the watch has appreciated considerably in value, those who own them are happy to have them and a travesty was turned into an example of what integrity in the marketplace looks like in the face of a fuck-up. So, every 30 or 40 times the virally recurring subject surfaces, I feel compelled to point out the fair and balanced side of the deal.
^^^Copyright ©️ 2021 3flushes Media.^^^
eddiea
Founding Member & Master of Time
Posts: 10649
Joined: December 25th 2009, 11:00pm

Re: Dievas Kampfschwimmer...

Post by eddiea » September 25th 2014, 5:58pm

3Flushes wrote:I think collectors do value rarity and appreciation. I always read a great deal from the flipper fraternity on this board regarding how this or that has held its' value, or money was made etc. Whether investment is a focus or not, it's cool to have purchased a watch that rises in value, whatever metric it strokes for the purchaser. I totally dig that I could double or better on my Maurice Lacroix watches, and that the models at the equivalent levels in the brand are selling for 4 + times the money they were selling for when I got interested in '97 or '98. Did I buy them in hopes of making money? Fuck no. Is it cool they have taken off and I made a good call about a brand who is unarguably currently producing the most innovative and artistic watches and in-house manufacture movements in the world for under a 75 G's? You bet.

The 318 was a travesty that if no one ever opened the damn things, would have remained so. It is hard to imagine what the jackasses were doing; watch buyers at the 5K level generally take better care of their watches than the masses and it was just a matter of time until one got serviced, or some collector Pannaresti guy wanted a pic of the cool BB Uni movement.

I have always wondered if it was somehow a slip in quality control... the assembler folks got the wrong movements and there wasn't time to wait for the right ones so they popped in the abbynormals and figured they'd issue a recall when the right ones arrived, or perhaps they didn't even notice, a crate showed up with movements in it marked for the BB so they popped them in like they always did, or maybe the right movements just weren't ready on time and they had to use the plain-jane roughcuts knowing the right stuff would eventually be available... or, I suppose there is the highly unlikely chance that a company of Pannarei's standing just decided to try to screw the public during a moment of drunken levity in the Board Room, and ironically as conj notes, decided to call the watch the Brooklyn Bridge. I don't know, but for whatever reason, bad judgement and evasiveness reigned over good sense and good business. Why tell the ugly truth if you can take a chance and dance? A travesty, yes indeedy.
A travesty made right such that the watch has appreciated considerably in value, those who own them are happy to have them and a travesty was turned into an example of what integrity in the marketplace looks like in the face of a fuck-up. So, every 30 or 40 times the virally recurring subject surfaces, I feel compelled to point out the fair and balanced side of the deal.


Honestly man I desagree , I found very, very hard to believe that not a single one of the master watchmakers at Panerai did not caught that piece of shit movement in time and reported it to someone up the management level, then pass QA sharp eyes too? that on itself pretty much takes away any hopes of a "fair balance deal" and or any excuses for that matter, including the lack of time to redo the bubu, not in a several thousand dollars watch , they fixed, because they got caught with their pants down, pretty much in a Tag or Bremont fiasco way...not much of a choice.
Now , the 318 has gain in value for a number of reasons ... the demand, who is a very fragil concept and because the brand has a very strong following , surprisingly among those who can memorize all of Richemont new models , but know very little about Panerai itself, as I sadly found out ....personally I do not buy a 318 , but then again my opinion is biased as in general, I think Richemont is in the business of legally produce glorified and overpriced homages of the original Panerai...
User avatar
3Flushes
ASSHAT & Master of Time
Posts: 9657
Joined: November 25th 2012, 11:00pm
Facebook ID: 0
Contact:

Re: Dievas Kampfschwimmer...

Post by 3Flushes » September 25th 2014, 6:39pm

eddiea wrote:
3Flushes wrote:I think collectors do value rarity and appreciation. I always read a great deal from the flipper fraternity on this board regarding how this or that has held its' value, or money was made etc. Whether investment is a focus or not, it's cool to have purchased a watch that rises in value, whatever metric it strokes for the purchaser. I totally dig that I could double or better on my Maurice Lacroix watches, and that the models at the equivalent levels in the brand are selling for 4 + times the money they were selling for when I got interested in '97 or '98. Did I buy them in hopes of making money? Fuck no. Is it cool they have taken off and I made a good call about a brand who is unarguably currently producing the most innovative and artistic watches and in-house manufacture movements in the world for under a 75 G's? You bet.

The 318 was a travesty that if no one ever opened the damn things, would have remained so. It is hard to imagine what the jackasses were doing; watch buyers at the 5K level generally take better care of their watches than the masses and it was just a matter of time until one got serviced, or some collector Pannaresti guy wanted a pic of the cool BB Uni movement.

I have always wondered if it was somehow a slip in quality control... the assembler folks got the wrong movements and there wasn't time to wait for the right ones so they popped in the abbynormals and figured they'd issue a recall when the right ones arrived, or perhaps they didn't even notice, a crate showed up with movements in it marked for the BB so they popped them in like they always did, or maybe the right movements just weren't ready on time and they had to use the plain-jane roughcuts knowing the right stuff would eventually be available... or, I suppose there is the highly unlikely chance that a company of Pannarei's standing just decided to try to screw the public during a moment of drunken levity in the Board Room, and ironically as conj notes, decided to call the watch the Brooklyn Bridge. I don't know, but for whatever reason, bad judgement and evasiveness reigned over good sense and good business. Why tell the ugly truth if you can take a chance and dance? A travesty, yes indeedy.
A travesty made right such that the watch has appreciated considerably in value, those who own them are happy to have them and a travesty was turned into an example of what integrity in the marketplace looks like in the face of a fuck-up. So, every 30 or 40 times the virally recurring subject surfaces, I feel compelled to point out the fair and balanced side of the deal.


Honestly man I desagree , I found very, very hard to believe that not a single one of the master watchmakers at Panerai did not caught that piece of shit movement in time and reported it to someone up the management level, then pass QA sharp eyes too? that on itself pretty much takes away any hopes of a "fair balance deal" and or any excuses for that matter, they fixed, because they got caught with their pants down, pretty much in a Tag or Bremont fiasco way...not much of a choice.
Now , the 318 has gain in value for a number of reasons ... the demand, who is a very fragil concept and because the brand has a very strong following , surprisingly among those who can memorize all of Richemont new models , but know very little about Panerai itself, as I sadly found out ....personally I do not buy a 318 , but then again my opinion is biased as in general, I think Richemont is in the business of legally produce glorified and overpriced homages of the original Panerai...

I don't really think they just didn't notice eddie, but I think just as ridiculous, is the notion that they intentionally set out to screw people as they knew those watches would be opened and the movements discovered sooner than later. My point is that when caught with their pants down, they stood up, made things right and have retained their standing, so, that's the fair and balanced part I like to point out on occasion when folks are beating the ass of that dead 318 horse.
^^^Copyright ©️ 2021 3flushes Media.^^^
User avatar
conjurer
ASSHAT & Master of Time
Posts: 33141
Joined: July 13th 2010, 10:00pm
Contact:

Re: Dievas Kampfschwimmer...

Post by conjurer » September 25th 2014, 6:49pm

3Flushes wrote:I don't really think they just didn't notice eddie, but I think just as ridiculous, is the notion that they intentionally set out to screw people as they knew those watches would be opened and the movements discovered sooner than later. My point is that when caught with their pants down, they stood up, made things right and have retained their standing, so, that's the fair and balanced part I like to point out on occasion when folks are beating the ass of that dead 318 horse.


What's ridiculous about minimizing costs? Companies do that every day. Granted, Panerai stepping up (after they got caught) and took steps to make things right, but as Eddie says, the idea that a high-end watch company would let something like the BB out the door and into customer's hands is absurd, unless they were trying to up their margins, or somebody other than the master watchmakers at Panny were the guys who put the BBs together. Either way, it was a monumental screwup.

There are guys here who like Panerais, so I'll not diss the brand too much. They've lately started to make their own movements and so forth, and they've got their rabid fanbois. They still ask a lot of money for their watches and get it, so more power to 'em.
eddiea
Founding Member & Master of Time
Posts: 10649
Joined: December 25th 2009, 11:00pm

Re: Dievas Kampfschwimmer...

Post by eddiea » September 25th 2014, 7:04pm

3Flushes wrote: My point is that when caught with their pants down, they stood up, made things right and have retained their standing, so, that's the fair and balanced part I like to point out on occasion when folks are beating the ass of that dead 318 horse.

Hmmm ...that's my point exactly, they stood up because they have no other choice period, I called being truly stood up when the problem is identified at the QA level and production is stopped until the issue is fixed, regardless of cost and before releasing that crap to their boutiques.
BTW I love Panerai, just having a hard time identifiying with the Richemont's Panerai kind for the most part ...now, issues like these were not the intend of this thread but IMO are not beating a dead horse , shit happens and we only learn from our past mistakes ,great to bring it up from time to time to remember and for the newbies to catch up.
iwasbanned
Master of Time
Posts: 6324
Joined: July 13th 2010, 10:00pm
Facebook ID: 0
Location: Austin, Texas
Contact:

Re: Dievas Kampfschwimmer...

Post by iwasbanned » September 25th 2014, 7:41pm

I like Panerai. I have no delusions that the Panerai of today is the Panerai of yesteryear. Most brands today are history challenged. They really fucked up with the BB watches. I don't think they did enough to make it right. If I recall, the owner had to pay for shipping there and back, Panerai should have covered all expenses. I have no idea what the hell happened or who fucked up, but I also find it hard to believe it was intentional. The savings of putting a shitty movement in a watch versus the public mess in my eyes wouldn't be worth it.

Regardless, I like what Panerai offers. In house movements with some nice complications, great cases, iconic and great looks. The price for the in house stuff in my opinion is right in line with most everything out there.
Post Reply

Return to “Micro-Brands”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest