Watchlords

Another day, another invicta watch group story. This time a lot of folks are crying foul about watches that were advertised and sold as ETA 7750 which in fact have SW500 movements instead. First off, the SW500 is a clone plain and simple. I will repeat that, it is a CLONE, not an original movement. It is based on the expired patents which were related to the ETA lines. This link will take you to Sellita and you download the movement PDF for all models.

http://www.sellita.com/index.php?option ... 58&lang=en

Below you will find a link for the relationship between both companies...

http://www.christopherward.co.uk/blog/t ... ita-story/

Is the Sellita reliable? Certainly since it is a clone of the ETA movements but again, they are clones, not the originals. And when Sellita started selling their versions of ETA movements, replica companies and companies like Invicta were and are still their best customers. In fact if you went to ebay and typed in Sellita you would find almost all watches with them are Invicta.

Sellita did some small modifications to the 2824-2, given that they had access to all the technical documentation and they released the SW200. The height quotas are a bit different (therefore parts from ETA don't fit on the Sellita). The main plates of the 2 movements are fixed differently. The finish is worse in the case of the Sellita movement (I'm referring at the parts not at the decorations here). The materials used in the balance wheel for the Sellita are a bit worse than those used on the 2824.

Sellita movements include:
• SW 200 (based on the ETA 2824-2) - used by the German watch manufacturers Aristo and Marcello C ◦ SW 220 (based on the ETA 2838)
◦ SW 240 - 13-ligne

• SW 300 (based on the ETA 2892-2)
• SW 500 (based on the Valjoux 7750) - Introduced in 2002 and used by TAG Heuer as their Calibre 16

Other companies using some Sellita movements include Oris, Tiffany an IWC (in only some lower end models) as well as Christopher Ward in the Trident C60 (again only in some models of that line)

There is no shortage of ETA movements. Swatch who owns ETA got a bit tired of having their standard ebauche movements sold as “in-house movements” by brands outside of Swatch. At one point it required that these movements had the Swatch logo on the rotors. The Standard movement is no longer being provided to companies outside of the Swatch family. The standard denotes an ebache which would then be modified and sold as something like the Calibre 11. The Tag Heuer Calibre 16 is a Sellita movement.


http://www.ablogtowatch.com/a-brief-history-of-eta/

ETA movements often come in four flavours. It is important to know what you're getting as most manufacturers don't widely make it known to you which they're using. Some are more equal than others so to speak. The four flavours are Standard, Elabor, Top and Chronomtre.

Standard and Elabor have precisely the same components. Elabor is regulated in three positions to tighter tolerance (see below) than the standard version which is regulated in two positions. The three positions are: dial up, 6H and 9H. Note that this is thus mostly acceptable for a watch worn on the left wrist! Regulation at 9H is not performed for the standard grade.

Top and Chronomtre have precisely the same components and are regulated in five positions (6h, 3H, 9H, FH dial down and CH dial up). Components different to Standard and Elabor are at least as follows: Balance, balance spring, regulator, shock mounting.

Typical popular ETA movement standards:

Standard (regulated in two positions)
Mean daily rate +/- 12 s/d
Max variation across 5 positions: 30 s
Isochronism (rate after 24H running compared to full wind): +/- 20 s/d

Elabor (regulated in three positions)

Mean daily rate +/- 7 s/d
Max variation across 5 positions: 20 s
Isochronism: +/- 15 s/d

Top (regulated in five positions)

Mean daily rate +/- 4 s/d
Max variation across 5 positions: 15 s
Isochronism: +/- 10 s/d

Chronomtre Version to COSC specification


http://forums.watchuseek.com/f2/smoke-m ... 58060.html

https://watchotaku.atlassian.net/wiki/d ... ETA+grades

http://www.calibre11.com/history-eta-77 ... alibre-16/



Now back on topic, it you have a watch that you thought was a Valjoux 7750 and it has another movement in it, that is fraud and deceptive trade practices. If you do nothing, this is what empowers Invicta and others like them to continue this fraud. This is only the most recent revelation in a long line of bullshit and deception by Invicta:

Fake Diamonds in watches and the explanation was there were two versions, one for the US and the other for Asia, not Walmart or Sams club. From Shopnbc to a buyer of that watch whose name has been redacted. He was a member of Watchgeeks at the time.

Dear Mr. XXXXX,

Thank you for your email. We apologize for the conflicting information you have received regarding the Invicta II Women's Classique Boutique Quartz Diamond Accent Stainless Steel Bracelet Watch (order 67146848). We are sending out letters to all the customers that received this Watch, which will include an explanation, as well as a pre-paid return label to send the Watch back. Also, we are issuing a credit of $35.00 to your original method of payment. Lastly, a $20.00 ShopCredit will be available on your account for use on a future purchase. This ShopCredit has not yet been applied, but should be available no later than next week.

Please feel free to contact us again if you have any further questions or concerns.

Thank you for shopping with ShopNBC.

Regards,

Stephanie T.
Customer Service Representative
ShopNBC


Of course there was also the fake Sandstone dials and when confronted, the story by lalo changed several times. It became goldstone and god knows what else. I purchased one for testing and put my money where my mouth is paying one of the top gemologists in the Northwest to test it. Guess what, it was plastic, nothing more. Yet all invicta offered to do was….nothing.
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=7632

Who could forget the Dubois Depraz Speedways, and the “loud conversations” taking place because of course it was not Invicta at fault. Yet once again Invicta was exposed as lying to their buyers, you. They had purchased grey market modules and had some second rate company install the modules. That did not work out well did it?

Technica Swiss Ebauche, a name to imply Swiss Made yet based in Korea.

Are those Gibeon Meteorite dial what they claim they are?

The watches valued at $3500 in total value (all 30 of them combined) given to some soldiers yet the claim was made that they were worth $78,000. Perhaps they should have not posted the photos and model numbers on facebook and brag about the watch. Shopnbc was selling the watch for $159 each and 30 of them do not add up to $78,000.


Many of you that have the incorrect movements think they are one and the same, equals. They are not. There is a difference in price that varies between $75 -$180 between the SW500 and the ETA 7750. One is the original, the other a clone. If you ever chose to sell your watch, try figuring out what the difference in resale would be.

More importantly, stop thinking about yourselves. Forum members on all forums are a tiny portion of buyers. Those who do not belong to forums will not know they have been defrauded and that is on you. Step up and demand your money back, an apology in writing, not a fucking excuse from them and contact the state attorney in Florida. Their contact information is available here and on other forums. The investigation into Invicta customer service is ongoing as of today. I notified them of this new fraud this morning and they will investigate that.

I have heard a lot of theories as to why Watchgeeks went away, from people hacking it to not having the passwords. Bullshit! It is easier to manage a facebook page than a forum. And more importantly, if you are under investigation and you have a customer service issue, just think about that nice, fat and juicy database of users and customers online who complained about customer service.


I also understand that there is some concern about Bulova watches and the Valjoux 7750 movements in them. Does anyone actually believe that Citizen Watch, which owns Bulova would endanger their reputation with some scam like Invicta pulls? Bulova has an outstanding reputation as does the Accutron line. If it says Valjoux(ETA) in relation to Bulova or Accutron, it is what it says it is. Yes some of their models have Japan made movements such as the Precisionist, but the Swiss Made models are indeed Swiss Made. Just because World of Watches and their online siblings say they do not know what is in the watches they sell, take it with a grain of salt. They are not an authorized Bulova reseller. They only have grey market stuff and we know how that turned out for Invicta.

http://www.pocketwatchrepair.com/histories/bulova.php

Needs to be posted to WIT!

This might be the single best post in the history of this forum. I can only hope that the right people read this - and that goes two ways.

A perfect summation of a really crummy organization. Kudos and a standing O.

TemerityB wrote:This might be the single best post in the history of this forum. I can only hope that the right people read this - and that goes two ways.

A perfect summation of a really crummy organization. Kudos and a standing O.

A nice summation, Alain!

Alas, the fuzzy bunnies will not pay attention to it. While Nvicter did pull a boner with the movement substitution, this is actually pretty small beer compared to some of their other whoppers. While Sellita is probably pretty close to the ETA version, and Nvicter certainly were guilty of false advertising, the thing that pissed off the WITs was that all of their horological knowledge is fatally flawed.

Valjoux brought out the 7750 back in the 1970s, just before the quartz crisis hit Swiss watchmaking. It was designed to be an inexpensive, workmanlike automatic chronograph movement. Many of its parts are stamped rather than machined, and while the 7750 tends to hold up well over the years, it's very easy to damage (mainly by trying to reset the chronograph before stopping it.) It was never intended to be a world-class, cutting edge movement (apart from its economy.)

Unfortunately, the Geeks (later the WITS) were spoonfed bullshit about what a wonder of horological engineering the 7750 was by folks like Jawbone and Temple and Turd head. The 7750 has endured in the market because A) it's relatively cheap to make and B) there wasn't really any other movement in the budget category to challenge it. If you want a Swissish automatic chronograph for under $1000, it's going to be a 7750. There's nothing much really wrong with the 7750, but on a list of automatic chrono movements available, it's going to rank at the bottom, especially compared to the Zenith El Primero, the Seiko 8R28, or the Rolex 4130. However, for many years of listening to ShopNBC bullshit, the WITs--who apparently never consult any other sort of horological advice, say, like on the internet--have come to see the 7750 as the "grail" movement, in their newest "grail" watch, discounted, naturally, for the Invicta Sunday Run.

You can teach them, but they will not learn. If it doesn't come across to them over their TVs, it's not true.

Very informative post. What is the significance of the blue and black type colors?

The 7750/7751 are in a lot of watches far beyond $1K. I've seen them in freaking Ernst Benz costing $7K msrp which is not very endearing.

tiktok wrote:The 7750/7751 are in a lot of watches far beyond $1K. I've seen them in freaking Ernst Benz costing $7K msrp which is not very endearing.

Very true, ticker. Plenty of manufacturers use them, although they are often modified--and hopefully, extensively modified, in the higher price points. As I said, there's not really that many automatic chronograph movements available (from Switzerland, at least) for third party makers to use other than the 7750 family, and even as one moves up the price spectrum, even for those. The only other option is usually a DD module, driven by an ETA tractor movement. Apart, of course, for Sellita.

True manufacture companies like Zenith, Rolex and Seiko are about the only companies bothering to design and build their own chrono movements, and they are unlikely to sell them to third parties--apart from Seiko, which is unlike to find its way into a Swiss brand, for obvious reasons.

conjurer wrote:

tiktok wrote:The 7750/7751 are in a lot of watches far beyond $1K. I've seen them in freaking Ernst Benz costing $7K msrp which is not very endearing.

Very true, ticker. Plenty of manufacturers use them, although they are often modified--and hopefully, extensively modified, in the higher price points. As I said, there's not really that many automatic chronograph movements available (from Switzerland, at least) for third party makers to use other than the 7750 family, and even as one moves up the price spectrum, even for those. The only other option is usually a DD module, driven by an ETA tractor movement. Apart, of course, for Sellita.

True manufacture companies like Zenith, Rolex and Seiko are about the only companies bothering to design and build their own chrono movements, and they are unlikely to sell them to third parties--apart from Seiko, which is unlike to find its way into a Swiss brand, for obvious reasons.

John, I've sent you a PM; if you get a moment, please check it out. Thanks.

mosc wrote:Very informative post. What is the significance of the blue and black type colors?

Blue is my rant, the black is information from websites such as ETA

My take on Sellita is that their movement quality varies according to grades , e.g. TOP Grade, COSC etc. (just like ETA) Sellita is an excellent Co. with an excellent reputation that actually was used by Swatch from time to time to made ETA 28XX series ebauches when they couldn't keep up with their own production goals as well as special finished movements batches.
Companies like IWC, Alpina, Maurice Lacroix, Tag Heuer and Oris among others used Sellita in different configurations , with great success ...
My take on Invicta on the other hand is , they are old news....

eddiea wrote:My take on Invicta on the other hands is , they are old news....

And with stuff that goes on like this week, hopefully soon be history as well as old news.

Great Post. THANKS!

http://watchintyme.com/thread/26130/inv ... ve-diamond


And now....

koimaster wrote:http://watchintyme.com/thread/26130/invicta-pave-diamond


And now....

Daycoo and his "+1". That ass needs to eat a bullet.

And, for the most part, so should the rest of the WITs. That thread left me nauseated and grimacing.

There is an exception to the very high-end watches (High end....upper stratosphere. watches like Jay Z's $5 million Hublot. Watches of that caliber have much nicer diamonds than your average Invicta.

Read more: http://watchintyme.com/thread/26130/inv ... z3rfIayR5S


Comedy gold right there!

It was fun for a long time to bash on WGs and WITless, now I just find it sad that they don't grow. They continue to believe the man on TV is their friend and looking out for them. Exposed so many times that it isn't even funny. Here's my answer , wear that badboi in good health. Enjoy losing your mind when it goes to pot. Don't come here crying about your shifty watch. Don't dare not to bow to any lord.

In this video from 2012, big mouth bullshitter eyal lotto brags about his "direct ties" to ETA and goes on to stay how the Valjoux 7750 is the ultimate in luxury. So it you got a SW 500 instead of the V7750, you got royally screwed. You just heard it from the mouth of the south himself. He even brags about his non existent "swiss factories" by way of china or Thailand.



[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxHFubfYBIg[/youtube]

Eyal Lalo, the Pinocchio of watch sales.

When the fuck is that clown gonna get his comeuppance?

Pisses me off.

I see sausage fingers chimed in on the diamond thread...

Tonight, as I write this, IWG is on Bovine at one of their Florida-based dog and pony shows hawking a "Reserve Pro Diver" with a "Swiss Valjoux 7750" movement. I find it interesting that's how they are terming it, among the other usual BS claims ("One of the most expensive clasp configurations," "They'll never believe you paid under $700" states Invicta Lyin').

I hope any sucker dumb enough to order their "coveted" "top" movement for 700 smackers has the good sense to bring it to a jeweler and have him crack it open to look inside. Anywho who takes any sales claim made by these loathsome TV talking heads at face value is playing a fool's game.

The Bovne website lists it as a "Swiss Made ETA 7750 Automatic." In the words of Jack Webb, dum-de-dum-dum.

Oh, and Kendall Kaddidlephopper is a kunt. ("This is an item you will feel the integrity all the time," whatever that means.)

TemerityB wrote:Tonight, as I write this, IWG is on Bovine at one of their Florida-based dog and pony shows hawking a "Reserve Pro Diver" with a "Swiss Valjoux 7750" movement. I find it interesting that's how they are terming it, among the other usual BS claims ("One of the most expensive clasp configurations," "They'll never believe you paid under $700" states Invicta Lyin').

I hope any sucker dumb enough to order their "coveted" "top" movement for 700 smackers has the good sense to bring it to a jeweler and have him crack it open to look inside. Anywho who takes any sales claim made by these loathsome TV talking heads at face value is playing a fool's game.

The Bovne website lists it as a "Swiss Made ETA 7750 Automatic." In the words of Jack Webb, dum-de-dum-dum.

Oh, and Kendall Kaddidlephopper is a kunt. ("This is an item you will feel the integrity all the time," whatever that means.)

This made me smile broadly. But, do you know what would make me smile even broadlier? Going to the last Watchlords charity auction and bidding!

Klenddy kLoddhoppers voice must be the sound of the dinner bell to some of those mooks. That's the only time they pull their heads out of the sand. HK shooter was the one who exposed the 7750 fraud and the very first TTV with an alleged 7750 in it he buys one. WTF?