Tudor Releases New Models With Exhibition Casebacks

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Tudor Releases New Models With Exhibition Casebacks

Post by 3Flushes » November 8th 2021, 3:43am

Tudor, in a welcome departure from the Rolex tradition of using only solid casebacks, is beginning to use more sapphire casebacks in keeping with more progressive, unique designs to bolster their position as a stand alone brand. Two new Black Bay 58 models now have sapphire exhibition casebacks in addition to a holdover from the 2020 catalog. There is word that a Black Bay Chronograph with an open back to showcase the MT5813 Tudor - Breitling column wheel collaboration may be in the works for next year.

The MT movements, in keeping with the Tudor ethos, are not elaborately decorated. The signed open-stock tungsten rotor is satin-brushed and the bridges and main plate are alternately sand-blasted and polished with laser engraved markings.

The new Black Bay models have 39mm cases and are offered in 18K yellow gold with a green dial and green ceramic bezel and, in sterling silver, manufactured from a proprietary, non-tarnishing sterling formulation, with a taupe dial and ceramic bezel. Both feature the MT5400 movement.

Tudor opens Black Bay case backs for the first time

https://www.watchpro.com/tudor-opens-bl ... irst-time/

The link also has information on newly released BB Chronographs.

The Glamour Double Date

The Glamour Double Date is a 42mm three hander with a double wheeled large date at 12 o'clock. Classically styled, it has been available since late 2019 but remains in the current catalog. The G-D-D features the MT5641 movement visible through a sapphire exhibition caseback.

The 42mm dial has guillochè patterned decoration with a vertical stripes pattern in the center, a finely snailed chapter ring with applied baton hour markers, and an outer chapter ring with stick minute markers and open round markers on the hour. An inset, snailed sub seconds register at 6 o'clock , and lumed pencil hands finish off a great looking dial.

A really handsome watch on a black strap and a good value for $3300.

https://www.tudorwatch.com/en/watch-fam ... ouble-date
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Re: Tudor Releases New Models With Exhibition Casebacks

Post by bbattle » November 8th 2021, 10:34am

codguy wrote: ↑
November 8th 2021, 6:38am
bbattle wrote: ↑
November 8th 2021, 5:18am
 I can see Tudor decorating their movements to further stand apart from Rolex, maybe add some cables to the bezel or go up in size to something more manly like 56mm or so.
Methinks you are confusing Tudor with Glycine
Nah, just sarcastically hoping Tudor doesn't get carried away with new design changes.
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Re: Tudor Releases New Models With Exhibition Casebacks

Post by koimaster » November 8th 2021, 11:06am

Was not aware that "dive" watches had Exhibition Casebacks. Perhaps Omega should rename the watches as something like Black Bay desk diver, the perfect watch for wanting to look like a man.
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Re: Tudor Releases New Models With Exhibition Casebacks

Post by jason_recliner » November 8th 2021, 5:04pm

conjurer wrote: ↑
November 8th 2021, 12:59pm
koimaster wrote: ↑
November 8th 2021, 11:06am
 Was not aware that "dive" watches had Exhibition Casebacks. Perhaps Omega should rename the watches as something like Black Bay desk diver, the perfect watch for wanting to look like a man.
HEY!!

Image

Image

:)**
That's the thing, isn't it. It doesn't make sense to put an inaccurate fragile mechanical movement in a dive watch. But it's in there and it's beautiful so you want to see it. The 'luxury dive watch' is a bit silly. I loved my PO and SMP to bits. Would I wear one today? No.

But oh my LORD, that dial. Come on Omega, put the zircon dial in an Aqua Terra already.
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Re: Tudor Releases New Models With Exhibition Casebacks

Post by 3Flushes » November 9th 2021, 4:03am

jason_recliner wrote: ↑
November 8th 2021, 5:04pm
conjurer wrote: ↑
November 8th 2021, 12:59pm
koimaster wrote: ↑
November 8th 2021, 11:06am
 Was not aware that "dive" watches had Exhibition Casebacks. Perhaps Omega should rename the watches as something like Black Bay desk diver, the perfect watch for wanting to look like a man.
HEY!!

Image

Image

:)**
That's the thing, isn't it. It doesn't make sense to put an inaccurate fragile mechanical movement in a dive watch. But it's in there and it's beautiful so you want to see it. The 'luxury dive watch' is a bit silly. I loved my PO and SMP to bits. Would I wear one today? No.

But oh my LORD, that dial. Come on Omega, put the zircon dial in an Aqua Terra already.
The notion that dive watches with mechanical movements are unsuitable for diving is nonsense.

The advances in materials and shock protection, Kif, Diashock, Novodiac (from Incabloc) just a few among the best of numerous shock protection systems, greatly improves the durability of mechanical movements. Many top shelf dive watches that are considered lux or 'tool' dive watches are powered by mechanical movements, Seiko, Bremont, Omega, Tudor, Breitling, and Rolex among them.

Analog quartz movements certainly have fewer parts, but still have a gear train, train bridge, detents, setting levers, hour and minute wheels, pinions, step motors, and whatnot, any of which are not particularly more resistant to shock than the parts in their mechanical counterparts. While electricity powers, and a quartz crystal regulates, an analog quartz watch, it still has to 'run'.

The notion that the movement of a dive - or any - watch is somehow more vulnerable in those watches using sapphire crystals, or that an open caseback compromises the performance or durability of a dive watch is patently false. Of primary note is that on quality dive watches, sapphire casebacks are screw down backs for maximum water resistance as are their stainless steel counterparts.

Also of note is that 'engineering ceramics' are the hardest material on the face of the earth, and the sapphire used to make watch crystals is a form of 'engineering ceramic' synthesized from Aluminum Oxide (AL-O3) in extreme heat (3600° F). This form of sapphire has a hardness rating of 2700 MPa while 316L stainless steel has a hardness rating of 1700 MPa - both of these ratings are under compression.

In tension, (flexibility) the tensile strength of 316 L is 485 MPa minimum, while the tensile strength for synthetic sapphire (AL,O3) is 480 MPa minimum, or basically equal to that of 316L stainless steel. Not being my major, if the pressure underwater equates to compression, (I believe it does) a sapphire crystal may actually be harder underwater than stainless steel, although sapphire in tension does tend to shatter when subjected to direct impacts.

The strength of the impact required to shatter synthetic sapphire is directly related to the thickness of the material. Tudor's (and Omega's) sapphire crystals on their dive watches are 3mm thick, two to three times the thickness of many sapphire crystals used in watchmaking. They will stand up to a pretty good shot, and much greater pressure than the watches are rated for.

So why not showcase the robust mechanical marvels running the show on the dial given there is no compromise in performance, other than in the perception of folks, most of whom, wouldn't so much as wear their dive watch for a swim.
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Re: Tudor Releases New Models With Exhibition Casebacks

Post by jason_recliner » November 9th 2021, 4:54am

3Flushes wrote: ↑
November 9th 2021, 4:03am
jason_recliner wrote: ↑
November 8th 2021, 5:04pm
conjurer wrote: ↑
November 8th 2021, 12:59pm
koimaster wrote: ↑
November 8th 2021, 11:06am
 Was not aware that "dive" watches had Exhibition Casebacks. Perhaps Omega should rename the watches as something like Black Bay desk diver, the perfect watch for wanting to look like a man.
HEY!!

Image

Image

:)**
That's the thing, isn't it. It doesn't make sense to put an inaccurate fragile mechanical movement in a dive watch. But it's in there and it's beautiful so you want to see it. The 'luxury dive watch' is a bit silly. I loved my PO and SMP to bits. Would I wear one today? No.

But oh my LORD, that dial. Come on Omega, put the zircon dial in an Aqua Terra already.
The notion that dive watches with mechanical movements are unsuitable for diving is nonsense.
Nah, a mechanical movement is good enough in most instances. But it's far from the best engineered. Quartz movements are significantly (i.e. measurably) more durable, rugged, and shock resistant. Not to mention more accurate and more reliable.

Sapphire is hard and strong but it's brittle. But again, it's good enough. The real risk is adding another join between two pieces (sapphire caseback and metal caseback surround) that must be sealed. Sealing isn't hard, and it almost always won't fail. But if one was looking to design a reliable, functional caseback, would it comprise one or two pieces?
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Re: Tudor Releases New Models With Exhibition Casebacks

Post by 3Flushes » November 10th 2021, 4:01am

jason_recliner wrote: ↑
November 9th 2021, 4:54am
3Flushes wrote: ↑
November 9th 2021, 4:03am
jason_recliner wrote: ↑
November 8th 2021, 5:04pm
conjurer wrote: ↑
November 8th 2021, 12:59pm
koimaster wrote: ↑
November 8th 2021, 11:06am
 Was not aware that "dive" watches had Exhibition Casebacks. Perhaps Omega should rename the watches as something like Black Bay desk diver, the perfect watch for wanting to look like a man.
HEY!!

Image

Image

:)**
That's the thing, isn't it. It doesn't make sense to put an inaccurate fragile mechanical movement in a dive watch. But it's in there and it's beautiful so you want to see it. The 'luxury dive watch' is a bit silly. I loved my PO and SMP to bits. Would I wear one today? No.

But oh my LORD, that dial. Come on Omega, put the zircon dial in an Aqua Terra already.
The notion that dive watches with mechanical movements are unsuitable for diving is nonsense.
Nah, a mechanical movement is good enough in most instances. But it's far from the best engineered. Quartz movements are significantly (i.e. measurably) more durable, rugged, and shock resistant. Not to mention more accurate and more reliable.

Sapphire is hard and strong but it's brittle. But again, it's good enough. The real risk is adding another join between two pieces (sapphire caseback and metal caseback surround) that must be sealed. Sealing isn't hard, and it almost always won't fail. But if one was looking to design a reliable, functional caseback, would it comprise one or two pieces?
Agreed that analog quartz watches are somewhat more durable given the absence of, particularly, a balance and escapement, and much of their accoutrements, however, to aver that mechanical movements are therefore too fragile and not suitable for diving, particularly without supporting documentation, is nonsense. The degree to which mechanical dive watches are utilized by professional and sport scuba divers, including our own resident diving expert, speaks for itself.

As to greater reliability of quartz, I'm not sure how true that actually is even if the electricity doesn't go out for whatever reason.

As to accuracy, a good quartz movement is somewhat more accurate than a good mechanical movement, however, that the difference is substantial enough to be critical to scuba diving is nonsense. In the case of Tudor, pre Master Chronometer Omegas, Bremont and other top shelf divers, the COSC cert of -4 to +6 seconds per day equates to - .167 to + .25 seconds per hour. The METAS cert of 0 to + 5 seconds per day equates to + .208 seconds per hour. At a hypothetical +/- 25 seconds per day accuracy spec, worse than any Seiko (arguably the most popular dive watches) mechanical movement, equates to 1.042 seconds per hour.

While the typical dive generally lasts about an hour or so depending on depth, even assuming a four hour dive, well beyond the non decompression limit of 205 minutes at a depth of 35 feet, if a diver could carry enough air, and assuming, of course, that a proper pre-dive synchronization of the subject watch with a calibrated time source like an atomic clock, or a computer, has been performed, it hardly seems necessary to say the notion that a mechanical dive watch is not accurate enough for scuba diving is not only nonsense, but is utterly ridiculous.

As to sapphire, again the thicker the material, the less brittle in tension, and the more likely to survive most typical impacts, and is certainly hard enough to withstand far greater than the pressure at the specified depth rating of any dive watch.

Regarding the water resistance and reliability of a screw down open back, they are indeed two pieces; the way they are assembled in a fully automated process is the key. The sapphire lens is slightly larger than the threaded piece of the caseback, between .33mm, and .53mm or somewhere between 1 and 2/100ths of an inch or so. The lens is held by a vacuum over the reverse of the threaded piece, and a gasket is placed on a lip machined around the inside just above the male threads. The sapphire is then press fit into place onto the gasket making for a secure fit. The gasket is then fully compressed when the unified caseback is flipped over and screwed into the case during assembly, assuring a watertight seal. Many solid and open casebacks have a double gasket design.

There is no way for the fit of the sapphire to fail. An exhibition caseback is no more subject to leakage or failure while being worn than is a solid caseback; in the case of the failure of the gaskets, that is. Such a failure is less likely than trump being voted Pope if the gaskets are refreshed and the watch pressure tested on schedule by a watchmaker who knows what they're doing.

While closed casebacks on tool and dive watches was a longstanding watchmaking tradition, open casebacks have been around since the sixties, and have become a ubiquitous presence in watch design, and will be sooner than later in what is perhaps the last frontier, dive watches with mechanical movements, that is.
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Re: Tudor Releases New Models With Exhibition Casebacks

Post by jason_recliner » November 10th 2021, 5:34am

3Flushes wrote: ↑
November 10th 2021, 4:01am
jason_recliner wrote: ↑
November 9th 2021, 4:54am
3Flushes wrote: ↑
November 9th 2021, 4:03am
jason_recliner wrote: ↑
November 8th 2021, 5:04pm
conjurer wrote: ↑
November 8th 2021, 12:59pm
koimaster wrote: ↑
November 8th 2021, 11:06am
 Was not aware that "dive" watches had Exhibition Casebacks. Perhaps Omega should rename the watches as something like Black Bay desk diver, the perfect watch for wanting to look like a man.
HEY!!

Image

Image

:)**
That's the thing, isn't it. It doesn't make sense to put an inaccurate fragile mechanical movement in a dive watch. But it's in there and it's beautiful so you want to see it. The 'luxury dive watch' is a bit silly. I loved my PO and SMP to bits. Would I wear one today? No.

But oh my LORD, that dial. Come on Omega, put the zircon dial in an Aqua Terra already.
The notion that dive watches with mechanical movements are unsuitable for diving is nonsense.
Nah, a mechanical movement is good enough in most instances. But it's far from the best engineered. Quartz movements are significantly (i.e. measurably) more durable, rugged, and shock resistant. Not to mention more accurate and more reliable.

Sapphire is hard and strong but it's brittle. But again, it's good enough. The real risk is adding another join between two pieces (sapphire caseback and metal caseback surround) that must be sealed. Sealing isn't hard, and it almost always won't fail. But if one was looking to design a reliable, functional caseback, would it comprise one or two pieces?
Agreed that analog quartz watches are somewhat more durable given the absence of, particularly, a balance and escapement , and much of their accoutrements, however, to aver that mechanical movements are therefore too fragile and not suitable for diving, particularly without examples of failure because of use in a dive watch due to other than leakage, is nonsense. The degree to which mechanical dive watrches are utilized by professional and sport scuba divers, including our own resident diving expert, speaks for itself.

As to greater reliability of quartz, I'm not sure how true that actually is even if the electricity doesn't go out for whatever reason.

As to accuracy, a good quartz movement is somewhat more accurate than a good mechanical movement, however, that the difference is substantial enough to be critical to scuba diving is nonsense. In the case of Tudor, pre Master Chronometer Omegas, Bremont and other top shelf divers, the COSC cert of -4 to +6 seconds per day equates to - .167 to + .25 seconds per hour. The METAS cert of 0 to + 5 seconds per day equates to + .208 seconds per hour. At +/- 25 seconds per day, a severely average rate, and worse than any Seiko (arguably the most popular dive watches) mechanical movements, equates to 1.042 seconds per hour.

While the typical dive generally lasts about an hour or so depending on depth, even assuming a four hour dive, well beyond the non decompression limit of 205 minutes at a depth of 35 feet, if a diver could carry enough air, and assuming, of course, that a proper pre-dive synchronization of the subject watch with a calibrated time source like an atomic clock, or a computer, has been performed, it hardly seems necessary to say the notion that a mechanical dive watch is not accurate enough for scuba diving is not only nonsense, but is utterly ridiculous.

As to sapphire, again the thicker the material, the less brittle in tension, and the more likely to survive most typical impact sand is certainly hard enough to withstand far greater than the pressure at the specified depth rating of any dive watch.

Regarding the water resistance and reliability of a screw down open back, they are indeed two pieces. They way they are popped together is the key in these aspects. The sapphire lens is slightly larger than the threaded piece, between .33mm, and .53mm or somewhere between 1 and 2/100ths of an inch or so. The lens is held by a vacuum over the threaded piece. A gasket is placed on a lip machined around the inside of the reverse of the threaded piece just above the male threads and the sapphire is then press fit into the reverse of the threaded piece over the gasket making for a secure fit and a watertight seal. The gasket is then further compressed when the now unified caseback is flipped over and screwed into the case, additionally assuring a watertight seal. Many solid and open casebacks have a double gasket design.

There is no way for the fit of the sapphire to fail. An exhibition caseback is no more subject to leakage or failure while being worn than a solid caseback other than in the case of the failure of the gaskets, which if refreshed on schedule by a watchmaker who knows what they're doing, is less likely than trump being elected Pope.

While closed casebacks on tool and dive watches was a longstanding watchmaking tradition, open casebacks have been around since the sixties, and like mechanical movements, have become a ubiquitous presence in watch design and will be sooner than later in what is perhaps the last frontier, dive watches with mechanical movements, that is.
To be clear, I'm not suggesting it's impossible for a mechanical watch to time a dive, or that the innacuracy and fragility of a mechanical movement renders submersion of a diver impossible. Merely that a 'luxury' mechanical dive watch is far from the best tool for the job.

Nor should my girlfriend laughing at grown men wearing 'dive wartches' necessarily preclude you from wearing one. Who cares, right? As long as you're happy :Thumbsup:
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Re: Tudor Releases New Models With Exhibition Casebacks

Post by 3Flushes » November 11th 2021, 2:11am

jason_recliner wrote: ↑
November 10th 2021, 5:34am
 ...
To be clear, I'm not suggesting it's impossible for a mechanical watch to time a dive, or that the innacuracy and fragility of a mechanical movement renders submersion of a diver impossible. Merely that a 'luxury' mechanical dive watch is far from the best tool for the job.

Nor should my girlfriend laughing at grown men wearing 'dive wartches' necessarily preclude you from wearing one. Who cares, right? As long as you're happy :Thumbsup:
And that's my somewhat exaggerated point - that a luxury dive watch is the same tool for the job as any other dive watch while certainly not any better of a tool for the job. One hardly need spend 6 G's + to obtain a watch suitable to the purpose, however, if one spends 12G's on a dive watch, and is so inclined in their mind to dive with it, the watch is very well suited to the application. The only draw back of the open back is the overall thickness it adds to the case, and the chip they seem to put on the shoulders of purists.

By the time I got my 2nd gen PO, I'd long stopped diving due to an injury. I did however wear it out in the water swimming, snorkeling and body boarding. My ex is a marine biologist who did research for the Scripps Institute of Oceanography. She dove with an old Seamaster. Most of her colleagues and the New Horizon's crew (Scripps' research vessel) wore Seiko, the Marinemaster especially popular when it came out, with a smattering of everything else including Rolex, Omega, Citizen and Sunto.

The bottom line of the entire conversation is that the best tool for the job isn't a watch at all, it's a dive computer.

By the bye, what's the old lady think about grownups who wear GMT's, pilot's watches, or chronographs? Or grown women wearing mens watches?
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Re: Tudor Releases New Models With Exhibition Casebacks

Post by jason_recliner » November 11th 2021, 3:09am

3Flushes wrote: ↑
November 11th 2021, 2:11am
By the bye, what's the old lady think about grownups who wear GMT's, pilot's watches, or chronographs? Or grown women wearing mens watches?
Pretty sure she doesn't know what GMTs, pilot watches and chronographs are. She's currently wearing a men's watch - the Red Rover - and it's growing on her. Now she's asked for a watch, but she wants GPS and they are all pretty huge (she has mall wrists). The RR looks okay on her, but it's borderline too big IMO. Looking at a Fenix 6S for her but they are pretty spendy.
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Re: Tudor Releases New Models With Exhibition Casebacks

Post by jason_recliner » November 11th 2021, 5:57am

3Flushes wrote: ↑
November 11th 2021, 5:22am
 i know squat about those kinds of watches- I use my phone. :lol:
There's no signal in some of the places she works. And she needs something a bit more rugged and durable than a phone a lot of the time. They mostly use hand held Garmins. That functionality in a watch apparently appeals to her.

I also love these new GPS watches. They look awesome and do everything. Plus, watches worn by adventurers and scientists seem cooler than watches bought by fat old men sitting at a desk.
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Re: Tudor Releases New Models With Exhibition Casebacks

Post by 3Flushes » November 11th 2021, 9:18pm

Just heard that rumor is Tudor's working on a new 3 register chronograph for next year with the MT5813 movement. I initially heard it would be a new Black Bay Chrono with an open back; it appears however that this watch will be the first in an entirely new line. In retrospect, I wonder why Tudor wouldn't have designed a new model in the first place to herald the arrival of their first chrono movement since having run away from home, so to speak.

With the incorporation of open casebacks, Tudor not only bucked the longstanding custom of using only solid casebacks at parent company, Rolex, but by designing them into dive watches, Tudor has also challenged the traditional view of a large number of watch enthusiasts who strongly believe that tool and dive watches should have solid casebacks. In any case (back), it's capital fun to watch Tudor continue to distinguish themselves by breaking new ground in watchmaking while substantially stepping up their game in quality at an exceptional value in the luxury watch market.
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Re: Tudor Releases New Models With Exhibition Casebacks

Post by 3Flushes » November 17th 2021, 3:25am

The North Flag was introduced in 2015 and is powered by Tudor's first in-house movement. The MT5621, designed for durability and accuracy is COSC certified, and features a beat rate of 28,800 VPH, a Silicone balance spring, and Tudor's own variable inertia, free-sprung balance, which has been in used all of in their subsequent in-hose movements.

The North Flag is a contemporary, rugged, 3 hander on a satin finished stainless steel, integrated bracelet. With a 40mm, primarily satin finished case, the watch sports an open sapphire caseback, while the stacked stainless steel and ceramic bezel is a nice touch to top off the case.

The black dial has applied Arabic numerals at 12 and 6 with applied bar markers on the hour, a date window at three o'clock, and a power reserve complication at nine o'clock with an arrow shaped indicator that rotates on a disc. The yellow seconds hand and PR scale, and a mildly recessed and angled chapter ring with stick minute markers which are yellow on the hour finish the highly legible, well laid out dial.

Somewhat overlooked after its release, in retrospect, the North Flag has come to be seen as the earliest departure from Tudor's custom of meticulous adherence to tradition in new models, and was perhaps the pivotal watch that ushered in a new era of design as Tudor set out to establish themselves as a stand alone brand.

Given its many firsts for Tudor, the North Flag has begun to generate a good deal of interest on the secondary market. While destined to be collectible, the North Flag is a terrific value and can be readily found priced well South of $3,000 from private sellers.

Sorry to link Hodonkey, but there are good pics and an ok piece on the watch.

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/the-t ... e-movement
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Re: Tudor Releases New Models With Exhibition Casebacks

Post by jason_recliner » November 17th 2021, 6:12pm

3Flushes wrote: ↑
November 17th 2021, 3:25am
 The North Flag ... Blah blah blah... Hodinkee toss pot drivel... Blah blah blah...
That's one seriously ugly wartche. Why waste your hard-earned on that munter when for a fraction of the price you could have this munter?

viewtopic.php?p=513818#p513776
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Re: Tudor Releases New Models With Exhibition Casebacks

Post by conjurer » November 17th 2021, 11:32pm

jason_recliner wrote: ↑
November 17th 2021, 6:12pm
3Flushes wrote: ↑
November 17th 2021, 3:25am
 The North Flag ... Blah blah blah... Hodinkee toss pot drivel... Blah blah blah...
That's one seriously ugly wartche. Why waste your hard-earned on that munter when for a fraction of the price you could have this
munter?

viewtopic.php?p=513818#p513776
This is, seriously, some really good salesmanship. Normally, when Toby gets caught behind the eight-ball, sales-wise, he normally:

--Tells the tirekickers to fuck off, or go fuck themselves, or shut the fuck up. So, this shows real progress in the sales game! Or:

--He insults the tirekickers to the point that they want to shrivel up and fucking die. Or:

--He posts multiple pictures of the item for sale, leaned up against some piece of driftwood, or flotsam, or whateverthefuck they call it in Oz, Bazinga!-like.

So, really good effort, Tobes. Coffee is for closers only!
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