Watchlords

Originally published on WUS here:http://forums.watchuseek.com/f11/bring-brain-xxiii-4681939.html

Hello and welcome to the 23rd instalment of Bring a Brain, the watchdog series, which, as always, brings you some entertainment, info, and, if you're behind the content featured, possibly some grey hair. In this instalment, we will look at - among other things - the learning amplitude: learn, forget, learn, forget...the same thing.
Lads and lasses...you have waited long enough, and here it is! Follow your spirit, and upon this charge...This is your Bring a Braaaaain!!!

As always, we'll start with the usual suspects...

First up, this Longines:
https://shop.hodinkee.com/collections/vintage-watches/products/1960s-longines-chronograph-30ch-reference-7413?variant=12100649975883#
So, you're telling me that an approximate year of manufacture is OK when researching a Longines?

Nope.

Oh, by the way, it dates to 1966, not 1960. "Circa 1960" would be, like, 1959 or 1961. 1966, I'd say that's quite far off.

The replacement pusher is the icing on the cake.

Now, let's move on to a rather fascinating phenomenon, shown in two Rolex listings. First, this Air-King-Date:
https://shop.hodinkee.com/collections/vintage-watches/products/1983-rolex-air-king-date-reference-5700?variant=12089485983819
Some rather nasty pitting ("case back shows nicks") on the case back (of the not-so-well restored case) aside, here's the star of the show: they have finally acknowledged, that it's the cal. 1525, not 1520... Well done, I've mentioned that for, like, three instalments, if not more. Good job.

On second thoughts, I take that back. Not a good job. Here's a watch from the newest batch in the shop:
https://shop.hodinkee.com/collections/vintage-watches/products/1973-rolex-red-submariner-reference-1680?variant=12100209082443
"Caliber: Rolex self-winding movement caliber 1570." No. It's the 1575. 1570 is a no-date. So, they just learned something new, and now they forget. Lesson one: don't have goldfish do the movement ID.

Let's move on to something else. Like, this Omega:
https://shop.hodinkee.com/collections/vintage-watches/products/1960s-omega-seamaster-gold-plated-reference-14762?variant=12100434460747
Here's the good question: if the pic of the inner side of the back is there, why would the movement pic notbe there? Oh, and the date window looks odd...at least the frame of it does look odd. "By the pricking of my thumbs..."

Now, another Omega:
https://shop.hodinkee.com/collections/vintage-watches/products/1960s-omega-seamaster-chronograph-reference-105-005?variant=12089473728587
The difference in the colour of the lume on the dial and hands is beyond suspicious. Assuming that's actually lume on the hands, because it looks more like black inlay, which doesn't go with a lumed dial. Two-word summary: this stinks.


It's time to look at the listings from another source...

First up for barrage, this Omega:
https://vintagecaliber.com/collections/archive/products/1940-omega-artdeco-ref-2318-5-cal-30t2
"Dial: untouched authentic excellent condition." Amazingly, not a word of this description is true. Just look at the font! The crooked M, tilted and narrow A (should be "flat-top!")...
"Professionally polished..." How nice. Let us honour this victim of capecodclothicide with a minute of silence.

Now, this Doxa:
https://vintagecaliber.com/collections/all/products/1943-doxa-jumbo-tropical-dial
Just for starters - no movement pic, and yet there is a pic of the inner side of the case back.
So, this is a replated piece, no movement pic included, for way more than a nice and unmolested specimen of the "Pie-Pan" Constellation. How about no?

How about this replated Tissot...
https://vintagecaliber.com/collections/all/products/1941-tissot-caliber-33-3-two-tone-guilloche-dial
...priced at 7500 euro? What a joke.
Oh, and this pattern is called snailing, not guilloche.
So, maybe this 6500 euro replated Tissot?
https://vintagecaliber.com/collections/all/products/1940-tissot-caliber-33-3-chro-ref-6201
No. It's a joke all the same.

That would be all for this instalment of Bring a Brain. Hope ye lads and lasses have enjoyed it, and as always...Bring a Brain will return if necessary!

As always, a wonderful (contribution) to the hobby.

Glad there are those out there with the knowledge and balls to speak out against the shysters.

biglove wrote:As always, a wonderful to the hobby.

Glad there are those out there with the knowledge and balls to speak out against the shysters.

Yup. Every time MK puts one of these out I cringe. Yet it doesn't seem to cause these sellers to blanche even a little.

I thought snailing was a lost term.

svaglic wrote:I thought snailing was a lost term.

Often overlooked, yes. Sellers prefer "guilloche", although guilloche refers to the "barleycorn" pattern. They often call the sunray pattern "guilloche" as well, although it obviously isn't that. The thing is, that French or Italian jargon and nicknames sell better to all the Manhattan hipsters.

bedlam wrote:

biglove wrote:As always, a wonderful to the hobby.

Glad there are those out there with the knowledge and balls to speak out against the shysters.

Yup. Every time MK puts one of these out I cringe. Yet it doesn't seem to cause these sellers to blanche even a little.

Thanks, chaps! Dunno if Bring a Brain was to no avail at all - Bring a Loupe is gone, the Donkey Shop gets a new batch only every two-three weeks now, rarely every week. The barrage did hit the target directly a few times, for example when I called them out for selling a redialed Vacheron, and the watch was withdrawn.
With how little vintage watches Hondickee sells now, deprived of the shop's mastermind and his weekly hype column, I'd say that they got hit. The horn of Moab has been cut off, and his arm is broken.
Also, I managed to drive the VintageCaliber guy out of WUS - after the scragging he got over a redialed Eterna, and another one in a generic "clamshell" case without appropriate markings, no one has heard from him in F11 ever again. He sells something every now and then, but most of his offer is still for sale after four months.
It is obvious that they're irreformable, but while BaB cannot heavily cripple the supply, it has slightly crippled the demand, and fueled the popular anti-fleecer sentiment.

Great stuff as usual Mikey, funny and informative.
Keep it up!

I love these BAB segments- this time you hit on a big time peeve of mine...

MKTheVintageBloke wrote:

svaglic wrote:I thought snailing was a lost term.

Often overlooked, yes. Sellers prefer "guilloche", although guilloche refers to the "barleycorn" pattern.

Like you said MK, the Tissot dial looks unlikely to have been hand done, probably oil pressed, but out of hand it's just an impression. This concentric circles pattern was popular on chronographs, primarily used in sub-dials, and Tissot while having a more celebrated past never was the kind of top tier brand who would have put that much highly skilled hand-work into a run of dials.

Oil pressed dials can certainly be considered hand made, they are pressed under tons of pressure, cut and finished by hand, and can be very cool looking, the entire pattern produced at once compared to the brush-stroke-at-a-time, so to speak, equivalent of an engine turned piece. It's a litho vs a painting in my view and while both are purty to look at, the more manipulated piece will always be more highly valued.

Huh, MK? The term guilloche has become as useless an horological reference as in-house movement. Uhhh, I meant geee-o-sheaa pattern like dyle, man. And another thing. It's guil - loche. Two syllables godammit. Ga - lowsh godammit. It makes me so mad godammit the way the horo-nomenclaturals get butchered and kicked around this hobby willy nilly to mean whatever the fuck the fuckin' fuck who's doing the typing wants it to mean to add value to whatever POS or article, or review they are trying to unload on an unsuspecting pubic. AHHHHHHHhhhhhhHHHHHHHHhhHHHHhhhHHHARG!!!!!!!!!! It's a job for the ISO is what it godamm is, but apparently, they are too busy over there to look into it, and they were fucking assholes about it on the phone, too.

Guilloche dials are made on Rose or straight line turning engines, complicated and incredibly precise hand cranked lathe-like machines. The rose engine uses various discs combined in different configurations that result in spectacular patterns across the material. The straight line machine uses bars to engrave its' patterns up and down the material. Patterns are designed to be geometrically striking and for maximum play with light.

The real deal is becoming a rare bird indeed; the guy at RGM is an engine turning master- there's a video around here somewhere of him working- I'll see if I can find it for yas.
Here it is:


Snailing is a very cool texture and pattern generally applied to metal parts via an abrasive process- grinder, diamond powder, English toilet paper, and so on. Wheels and gears are the usual recipients, however, dials with the design are known to pop up. Distinctnafied by it's brushed, variegated lines, the decoration appears striated like a snail's shell and arched or curved spirals are grouped in the configuration of it's namesake. Reversed triangles around the material can also create the effect- it is very cool looking, and generally hidden under the dial. GO and some other big hitters decorate a gear or two in the back that can be seen through a glass back.

From the 'ol watch library:
Stuff about snailing and a lot of other very cool horological engraving stuff, perlage and so forth...
https://www.circuitousroot.com/artifice/machine-shop/surface-finishing/snailing/index.html

This is a watch with a snailed dial- enlarge to see the pattern...
https://www.steindiamonds.com/g-p-m-h-snailed-grey-dial-black-leather-men-s-watch

Video of a guy snailing wheels and gears and whatnot...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_S8oA9HdlY

3Flushes wrote:Like you said MK, the Tissot dial looks unlikely to have been hand done, probably oil pressed, but out of hand it's just an impression. This concentric circles pattern was popular on chronographs, primarily used in sub-dials, and Tissot while having a more celebrated past never was the kind of top tier brand who would have put that much highly skilled hand-work into a run of dials.

This pattern was popular on just about everything sub-second. Tissot seems to have put quite a lot of work into their dials, which isn't particularly common for manufacturers of their tier (well, of what was their tier back then). Obviously, this came at the expense of movement finishing - their movements, while well-made, rugged and reliable, visually were only a little less boring than a Jane Austen novel. They did the proper "barleycorn" pattern as well, notably on the 1950s Visodate, but on a few other models from that decade as well. In the 1940s, though, concentric circles was as good as they could get. Snailing or not, I've seen it referred to as snailing more than a few times, and while it might not exactly be the proper sort of snailing, and indeed an oil pressed pattern, it's still less revolting than calling it guilloche.

3Flushes wrote:Huh, MK? The term guilloche has become as useless an horological reference as in-house movement. Uhhh, I meant geee-o-sheaa pattern like dyle, man. And another thing. It's guil - loche. Two syllables godammit. Ga - lowsh godammit. It pisses me off the way the horo-nomenclature gets butchered and kicked around in this hobby willy nilly to mean whatever the fuck the fuckin' fuck who's doing the typing wants it to mean to add value to whatever POS they are trying to unload on an unsuspecting pubic. AHHHHHHHhhhhhhHHHHHHHHhhHHHHhhhHHHARG!!!!!!!!!! It's a job for the ISO is what it godamm is, but apparently, they are too busy over there to look into it, and by the way, they were fucking assholes about it on the phone.

That, Mr. Flushes, is a rant masterpiece.

MKTheVintageBloke wrote:

3Flushes wrote:Like you said MK, the Tissot dial looks unlikely to have been hand done, probably oil pressed, but out of hand it's just an impression. This concentric circles pattern was popular on chronographs, primarily used in sub-dials, and Tissot while having a more celebrated past never was the kind of top tier brand who would have put that much highly skilled hand-work into a run of dials.

This pattern was popular on just about everything sub-second. Tissot seems to have put quite a lot of work into their dials, which isn't particularly common for manufacturers of their tier (well, of what was their tier back then). Obviously, this came at the expense of movement finishing - their movements, while well-made, rugged and reliable, visually were only a little less boring than a Jane Austen novel. They did the proper "barleycorn" pattern as well, notably on the 1950s Visodate, but on a few other models from that decade as well. In the 1940s, though, concentric circles was as good as they could get. Snailing or not, I've seen it referred to as snailing more than a few times, and while it might not exactly be the proper sort of snailing, and indeed an oil pressed pattern, it's still less revolting than calling it guilloche.


That, Mr. Flushes, is a rant masterpiece.

Thank you, man. It really is quite refreshing. I can see why you like it so much; stay pissed, BAB is great fun, especially when you hit on an akin irritation. Hell, if you didn't pop them up here, I would probably maybe even go to WUS just to read them... uhhh, not that I'm not glad I don't have to.

Well, MK, perhaps we horologicals should just call any sort of embellishment at all decoration and fuckin' forget it. I can't wait for the guilloched watches for sale with the swirly spiraly dial, the bullseye pattern, the barber poles, the cloned clamshell rotor, and the guilmaché hand pressed,lacquered, and painted paper dials.

I forgot who used to holler this and I'm too lazy to search, but, get out of my goddam hobby!

Hodinkee are plagiarists too.
Back in June 2015 I posted about the first patent for springbars, in a very long thread on WUS here:

http://forums.watchuseek.com/f11/very-e ... st17381946

Less than six months later, an article on the origins of the springbar uses the patent here:

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/the-s ... spring-bar

Coincidence? I don't think so.

Folly. You got money, and lots of it, then you bend over so Hodinkee and the other pomaded second-hand crap salesmen can insert the extraction probe. You'll bleat all over the internet about the shoddy finery you bought, because you don't do anything at work all day, except sit there taking photos of your wrist like a freak.

I'm not sure who needs winding up more. People who hawk cobbled-together rubbish with fragranced descriptions, or the utter mugs who lap their shit up!

Wow. It always astounds me how easy it is when it comes to Rolex to list models with the correct movements, and here's "experts" who can't even accomplish that.

Always enjoyable stuff, just great.

Outstanding work, as always, Mr. Bloke.