Yema Watches

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Yema Watches

Post by koimaster » January 31st 2019, 10:47am

YEMA's workshops are based in the small town of Morteau in France, surrounded by extensive pine forests in a secluded valley in the Jura mountains. YEMA is run by a third generation watchmakers‘ family of Morteau with a small scale team averaging +30 years of service.

Design, prototyping and assembling is manually and precisely taken care of at our Morteau workshops by highly experienced French traditional watchmakers.





https://en.yema.com/pages/yema-expertise
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Re: Yema Watches

Post by svaglic » January 31st 2019, 6:52pm

Check out the Superman Lagoon with the new movement in it. $699.00, not bad for an in-house movement, yet they almost double the price for their 2824-2 Superman heritage. The prices are a bit confusing to me, how good is this in-house movement?
https://en.yema.com/products/yema-super ... -ymhf1557a
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Re: Yema Watches

Post by biglove » January 31st 2019, 9:37pm

svaglic wrote:Check out the Superman Lagoon with the new movement in it. $699.00, not bad for an in-house movement, yet they almost double the price for their 2824-2 Superman heritage. The prices are a bit confusing to me, how good is this in-house movement?
https://en.yema.com/products/yema-super ... -ymhf1557a



The Lagoon looks tempting. Great size. Wonder how they will go on grey market or used?
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Re: Yema Watches

Post by tomsimac » January 31st 2019, 10:01pm

Small for a diver but killer is mineral glass
I’d like to say it’s a value but I see so many great watches on sale that smoke this, like a lot of Tutima’s
In fine shape with titanium, sapphire glass, 2836 movements etc. same or less right now

It’s a dilemma

The watch design isn’t unique but it is very smart. Yema as a brand name....
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Re: Yema Watches

Post by MKTheVintageBloke » February 1st 2019, 9:57am

It's slightly odd that they don't provide any specs of the movement on the website... Found them here:
https://lamecaniquedesmontres.blogspot.com/2018/09/mouvement-ambre-mbp-1000.html
Wider and thicker than the 2824-2, higher power reserve. Higher jewel count as well, but I don't think it matters much - certainly not in terms of the rotor, it seems to have a 5-point bearing, just like the 2824.
Looking at photos of it, nothing special, with a somewhat coarse perlage.
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Re: Yema Watches

Post by svaglic » February 1st 2019, 10:34am

MKTheVintageBloke wrote:It's slightly odd that they don't provide any specs of the movement on the website... Found them here:
https://lamecaniquedesmontres.blogspot.com/2018/09/mouvement-ambre-mbp-1000.html
Wider and thicker than the 2824-2, higher power reserve. Higher jewel count as well, but I don't think it matters much - certainly not in terms of the rotor, it seems to have a 5-point bearing, just like the 2824.
Looking at photos of it, nothing special, with a somewhat coarse perlage.


I thought it was odd that the Superman lagoon in-house costs almost half of what the Superman heritage 2824-2 costs. I thought in-house movements generally cost more and the prices would be flip flopped. This is a red flag for me.
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Re: Yema Watches

Post by MKTheVintageBloke » February 1st 2019, 3:41pm

svaglic wrote:
MKTheVintageBloke wrote:It's slightly odd that they don't provide any specs of the movement on the website... Found them here:
https://lamecaniquedesmontres.blogspot.com/2018/09/mouvement-ambre-mbp-1000.html
Wider and thicker than the 2824-2, higher power reserve. Higher jewel count as well, but I don't think it matters much - certainly not in terms of the rotor, it seems to have a 5-point bearing, just like the 2824.
Looking at photos of it, nothing special, with a somewhat coarse perlage.


I thought it was odd that the Superman lagoon in-house costs almost half of what the Superman heritage 2824-2 costs. I thought in-house movements generally cost more and the prices would be flip flopped. This is a red flag for me.

I hear you. Frankly, I as well find that rather disconcerting.

Still, it appears that it isn't entirely a Yema in-house movement, but rather an ebauche shared between the brands of the holding that Yema belongs to. It may be, that ETA was overcharging for the 2824s, and it was simply more profitable for the Montres Ambre holding to develop a movement of their own.

I suppose that it might be something of a long-term result of Swatch Group's intention to cut off the supply of ETA movements to brands outside the SG, but all the same, whatever the reason for this development would be, it won't hurt Montres Ambre to have a movement production facility, the output of which can be easily shifted from supplying MA brands only to supplying whoever pays.

Then there's another matter - little to nothing of the quality of this movement, of its performance... I struggled to just find the specs of it. We don't know if it isn't, in fact, anyhow inferior to the 2824, be it in terms of hairspring material and its magnetic resistance, average daily rate (if compared to whatever be the grade of the 2824 that Yema uses), positional variation, isochronism, and so on. Also, we don't know how many components are outsourced (and thus, made outside France), and what are the legal limits of outsourcing for the movement to be marked as a French product. In other words, half of that can be made in the Far East and assembled in France, for all I know.

All in all, would it be possible for them to make an in-house movement (even if it's a "reserved" calibre shared between the brands of one holding), and offer it cheaper than the 2824 they've been using so far, while making a profit? Quite definitely yes. The good question is not if it is possible, but how is it possible. Save perhaps all the speculation I've been able to offer, I must admit that I don't know.
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Re: Yema Watches

Post by 3Flushes » February 2nd 2019, 1:57pm

I've liked these a long time--- divers with the notched/stitched leather straps and Natos look bad. They could use some classy silicone or waterproof/rubberized leather straps.

Silly French- just because they are a bunch of scarf tying genieuses they think they know everything.
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Re: Yema Watches

Post by tiktok » February 2nd 2019, 7:23pm

French labor commuters are the backbone of the Jura Valley. The watch companirs cannot afford to pay Swiss labor rates so even in Switzerland at least a large part of labor is actually a French.
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Re: Yema Watches

Post by MKTheVintageBloke » February 2nd 2019, 7:56pm

tiktok wrote:French labor commuters are the backbone of the Jura Valley. The watch companirs cannot afford to pay Swiss labor rates so even in Switzerland at least a large part of labor is actually a French.

That's an interesting observation, but still, the question is if the lower cost of the version equipped with an in-house movement doesn't by any chance come from the potential fact of said movement being at least partially made in, say, the land of Cathay. The price difference can have its source in that, but doesn't have to. It may be, that ETA simply got greedy to the point of creating and using a rather industrially finished in-house movement being more cost-effective than buying the 2824. To put it shortly, we don't know if the Montres Ambre holding is cutting corners or not.
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Re: Yema Watches

Post by AlbertaTime » February 2nd 2019, 8:51pm

tiktok wrote:Ah yes, the little house in Guangzhou province where life begins.


Get me the address. I'll visit in June :-)
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Re: Yema Watches

Post by conjurer » February 2nd 2019, 9:04pm

MKTheVintageBloke wrote:Looking at photos of it, nothing special, with a somewhat coarse perlage.


The perlage indeed looks like shit; I've seen better on some Chinese mushroom brands. ETA certainly wouldn't let anything like that out of their factory.
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Re: Yema Watches

Post by Hawk » February 3rd 2019, 6:05am

MKTheVintageBloke wrote:
tiktok wrote:French labor commuters are the backbone of the Jura Valley. The watch companirs cannot afford to pay Swiss labor rates so even in Switzerland at least a large part of labor is actually a French.

That's an interesting observation, but still, the question is if the lower cost of the version equipped with an in-house movement doesn't by any chance come from the potential fact of said movement being at least partially made in, say, the land of Cathay. The price difference can have its source in that, but doesn't have to. It may be, that ETA simply got greedy to the point of creating and using a rather industrially finished in-house movement being more cost-effective than buying the 2824. To put it shortly, we don't know if the Montres Ambre holding is cutting corners or not.


A perhaps heretical question but doesn't bringing production in-house lower costs? We're accustomed to Swiss in-house movements being associated with high-priced brands. But the very notion of something being brought in-house increasing cost runs cross-grain to my experience outside watchmaking.

In almost every other human endeavor bringing production in-house lowers cost. There are naturally costs involved in setting up for in house production of a major component - perhaps we're simply used to the Swiss trying to amortize every dime the first month?

Almost every specialized market succumbs to a form of magical thinking. In the case of RC helicopters I noticed that some few had repealed Ohm's law and done a considerable re-write on the laws of thermodynamics. I've often harbored a discreet (until just this moment) question as to whether the outlook on relative costs of in-house movements isn't perhaps one of these things. Something along the lines of "sure in-house production lowers costs in the rest of the world but this is watches fer crissakes - and we're proud of getting it backwards".
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Re: Yema Watches

Post by MKTheVintageBloke » February 3rd 2019, 3:49pm

Hawk wrote:
MKTheVintageBloke wrote:
tiktok wrote:French labor commuters are the backbone of the Jura Valley. The watch companirs cannot afford to pay Swiss labor rates so even in Switzerland at least a large part of labor is actually a French.

That's an interesting observation, but still, the question is if the lower cost of the version equipped with an in-house movement doesn't by any chance come from the potential fact of said movement being at least partially made in, say, the land of Cathay. The price difference can have its source in that, but doesn't have to. It may be, that ETA simply got greedy to the point of creating and using a rather industrially finished in-house movement being more cost-effective than buying the 2824. To put it shortly, we don't know if the Montres Ambre holding is cutting corners or not.


A perhaps heretical question but doesn't bringing production in-house lower costs? We're accustomed to Swiss in-house movements being associated with high-priced brands. But the very notion of something being brought in-house increasing cost runs cross-grain to my experience outside watchmaking.

In almost every other human endeavor bringing production in-house lowers cost. There are naturally costs involved in setting up for in house production of a major component - perhaps we're simply used to the Swiss trying to amortize every dime the first month?

Almost every specialized market succumbs to a form of magical thinking. In the case of RC helicopters I noticed that some few had repealed Ohm's law and done a considerable re-write on the laws of thermodynamics. I've often harbored a discreet (until just this moment) question as to whether the outlook on relative costs of in-house movements isn't perhaps one of these things. Something along the lines of "sure in-house production lowers costs in the rest of the world but this is watches fer crissakes - and we're proud of getting it backwards".


I suppose this could be related to the quantities made. Something like a 2824, made and sold by its manufacturer (ETA) wholesale in large quantities is unlikely to be more costly than an in-house movement made in far smaller quantities. Back in the 1970s and 1980s, even the companies that used to rely on in-house movements heavily - like Omega, Tissot, Longines, Eterna, Zenith, Movado, and some others - first started sharing movements being joint ventures, then pushed towards relying on generic ones. One reason I can think of is - what else - bringing down the production costs of mechanical watches, back then less desirable than quartz. The push for going in-house, even by brands that never made a movement of their own before (Tudor, for example), is a thing of the last decade, and it continues.

Then again, it is also very likely, that in fact the in-house thing is cheaper to make, but "in-house" (sans any high-tech silicon gimmicks) became the universal justification for fleecing the customer.

So, returning to the original matter of the price difference between the in-house (though in fact powered by a reserved calibre of the Montres Ambre holding) and ETA-powered Yemas, I can narrow it down to a list of possible reasons:

1. MA is cutting corners on materials and finishing, and delivers a movement inferior to the 2824.
2. MA outsources the production of movement parts.
3. ETA and the SG in general got greedy, and overcharge the MA and its brands for the 2824.
4. The production of MA's own movement results in a lower cost per unit, which may or may not be linked to ETA getting or not getting greedy beyond measure.

Without actual figures for production costs (design, labour, materials, facilities, and whatthefucknot), I can't really get further than just speculating.
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Re: Yema Watches

Post by robatsu » February 3rd 2019, 3:59pm

taxi companies, for the most part, don't make their own cars. Depends how many units for economies of scale for insourcing/outsourcing decisions.

Has Yema been in continuous existence and production since its days of glory, according to website, in 1970s or is it a revivified brand?
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Re: Yema Watches

Post by TemerityB » February 3rd 2019, 4:22pm

conjurer wrote:
MKTheVintageBloke wrote:Looking at photos of it, nothing special, with a somewhat coarse perlage.


The perlage indeed looks like shit; I've seen better on some Chinese mushroom brands. ETA certainly wouldn't let anything like that out of their factory.


Yep. I don't understand any of this, this time. Honestly don't. I don't mean to be snarky, but rather friendly and logical: You can get an actual Swatch product with a 2824-1, designed similarly, for far less than the prices of this line.

I just don't get it this time.
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Re: Yema Watches

Post by svaglic » February 3rd 2019, 4:31pm

robatsu wrote:taxi companies, for the most part, don't make their own cars. Depends how many units for economies of scale for insourcing/outsourcing decisions.

Has Yema been in continuous existence and production since its days of glory, according to website, in 1970s or is it a revivified brand?


It had several owners, including Seiko.

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Re: Yema Watches

Post by robatsu » February 3rd 2019, 4:35pm

conjurer wrote:
MKTheVintageBloke wrote:Looking at photos of it, nothing special, with a somewhat coarse perlage.


The perlage indeed looks like shit


I was shocked by how crude all the finishing was on the movement. The perlage looks like maybe me trying this for the first time with my hand held dremel tool.
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Re: Yema Watches

Post by Hawk » February 3rd 2019, 8:38pm

MKTheVintageBloke wrote:I suppose this could be related to the quantities made. Something like a 2824, made and sold by its manufacturer (ETA) wholesale in large quantities is unlikely to be more costly than an in-house movement made in far smaller quantities. Back in the 1970s and 1980s, even the companies that used to rely on in-house movements heavily - like Omega, Tissot, Longines, Eterna, Zenith, Movado, and some others - first started sharing movements being joint ventures, then pushed towards relying on generic ones. One reason I can think of is - what else - bringing down the production costs of mechanical watches, back then less desirable than quartz. The push for going in-house, even by brands that never made a movement of their own before (Tudor, for example), is a thing of the last decade, and it continues.

Then again, it is also very likely, that in fact the in-house thing is cheaper to make, but "in-house" (sans any high-tech silicon gimmicks) became the universal justification for fleecing the customer.

So, returning to the original matter of the price difference between the in-house (though in fact powered by a reserved calibre of the Montres Ambre holding) and ETA-powered Yemas, I can narrow it down to a list of possible reasons:

1. MA is cutting corners on materials and finishing, and delivers a movement inferior to the 2824.
2. MA outsources the production of movement parts.
3. ETA and the SG in general got greedy, and overcharge the MA and its brands for the 2824.
4. The production of MA's own movement results in a lower cost per unit, which may or may not be linked to ETA getting or not getting greedy beyond measure.

Without actual figures for production costs (design, labour, materials, facilities, and whatthefucknot), I can't really get further than just speculating.


Good points and to be sure I'm inviting speculation especially from those deeper into the market than I am.

In-house, outside watches, implies that the quantity produced is equal to the quantity previously purchased. If savings were not to be had there wouldn't be much in the way of incentive to do so apart from not being dependent on one's suppliers. A supplier enjoying economy of scale is real enough but (again, outside watches) is typically eaten up with profits accruing to the supplier.

It is possible to totally fuck up moving something in-house. To take an example I'm more familiar with an American might decide to make his own AK pattern receivers but does so by milling them out of a 50 pound block of SAE 4140 instead of bending them out of sheet steel like the supplier did. More of a self-inflicted wound than a good example but you get the idea.

Market dynamics suggest that if one is in a market where people will readily pay extra for in-house it stands to reason that anything that can be marketed as in-house will be priced higher than the alternative even if such pricing doesn't reflect actual costs. There also exists the possibility that ETA's economy of scale is held internally with savings not passed on to purchasers outside SG - which is purest speculation.

Further complicating my heresy is the straightforward buying of a movement while pretending it's in-house. That doesn't seem to work real well with eagle-eyed WIS wondering why the Wright Flyer movement looked so very much like a La Joux-Perret and others simply assigning their own numbers. And I never did have a reasonable guess why Rolex stopped buying El Primeros - I'm guessing this might be an isolated case of saving money as Zenith isn't an ETA.

Vast swaths of the wristwatch market remain pretty murky to me.
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Re: Yema Watches

Post by Hawk » February 3rd 2019, 8:44pm

robatsu wrote:taxi companies, for the most part, don't make their own cars. Depends how many units for economies of scale for insourcing/outsourcing decisions.

Has Yema been in continuous existence and production since its days of glory, according to website, in 1970s or is it a revivified brand?


For quite some time they pooled purchasing and made one company famous.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Checker_M ... orporation

They certainly didn't enjoy GM's economy of scale but they did compete for a while offering something conspicuously suitable to purpose.

Totally off-topic but I keep coming across "British Black Cab" when reading Stephen Leather novels. Beats me if they are merely a multitude of manufacturers painted alike or if there's something more common to them. Even further off topic - I wonder what became of their street vigilante / superhero? If clamping ever catches on here we'll need him to conduct a seminar.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/3112670.stm
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Re: Yema Watches

Post by conjurer » February 3rd 2019, 8:47pm

robatsu wrote:
conjurer wrote:
MKTheVintageBloke wrote:Looking at photos of it, nothing special, with a somewhat coarse perlage.


The perlage indeed looks like shit


I was shocked by how crude all the finishing was on the movement. The perlage looks like maybe me trying this for the first time with my hand held dremel tool.


Interestingly, the perlage on the Yema movement reminded me of seeing, some years back, Eyal of Invicter boosting of a buttload of 7750's he scored from ETA--presumably at night, when the back door of the factory was left open. Anyway, he actually produced a bill of lading from ETA to some convenience address in--where else?--Florida. He then showed some appalling Subaqua Homer that was using the 7750, and through the display back showed very similar perlage that might have been applied by Chris Burke after a couple of six-packs. I've owned a couple of watches with ETA applied perlage, and it was extremely well done, obviously by a master. After this, I figured that Eyal actually wrote a big-ass check to ETA (that didn't bounce), and sent the movements to Hong Kong, for some drone to apply the decoration. Naturally, I have no evidence of this, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was true.
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Re: Yema Watches

Post by robatsu » February 3rd 2019, 10:09pm

svaglic wrote:
robatsu wrote:
Has Yema been in continuous existence and production since its days of glory, according to website, in 1970s or is it a revivified brand?


It had several owners, including Seiko.

Image


That says Seiko owned them from 1988 to 2004 when Yema was sold back to French hands. Got me wondering if Yema actually ever produced any watches while under Seiko ownership or was it acquired for some IP or other reasons.

So I started googling around, couldn't find anything definitive, like look at this Yema from the 90s while there is plenty of look at this Yema from the 80s.

Found some fun Yemas from way back when, like this one:

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And this one:

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But nothing that was specifically called out as in the Seiko time frame. Then I got smart and googled Yema 90s and got this guy:

Image

Whoa, the Superman II, purportedly from the 90s. Auto, and quite attractive:

Image

Image

Image

Apparently, quartz and lume dial models were made:

Image

If those were indeed made in the era of Seiko ownership, talk about a stealth Seiko for a guy vaguely understanding the need for a sub 40mm legit diver.
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