Porsches are Burning

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Porsches are Burning

Post by bbattle » February 18th 2022, 7:41am

A mammoth cargo ship believed to be carrying thousands of vehicles including 1,100 Porsches was on fire and drifting off the coast of the Azores on Thursday after its 22 crew members were rescued from the vessel.

The Drive, an automotive website, reported that the Volkswagen Group estimated nearly 4,000 vehicles were on board, including 189 Bentleys.

Matt Farah, a car enthusiast and editor of The Smoking Tire, had been waiting for his 2022 frozen-berry metallic Boxster Spyder, with a retail price of about $123,000 and modified to his precise specifications, since August. “The best sports car of all time, hands down,” he wrote.

Lithium-ion batteries in the electric cars on board have caught fire and the blaze requires specialist equipment to extinguish, captain Joao Mendes Cabecas of the port of Hortas said.


https://dnyuz.com/2022/02/17/ship-carry ... nd-adrift/
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Re: Porsches are Burning

Post by MAX » February 18th 2022, 1:19pm

Too bad it wasnt BMWs. Keep some of those type drivers off of the roads.
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Re: Porsches are Burning

Post by gerdson » February 18th 2022, 1:51pm

Who the hell is supposed to enter the cargo room and try to put out burning Lithium... You can only wait for it to burn out.
The Danish fire department recently presented a fire truck to be used for such. It is basically an open 20 foot container filled with water, and a crane to dip the burning Tesla or whatever in there.
One wonders how they plan to handle a car fire in an underground garage...
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Re: Porsches are Burning

Post by 3Flushes » February 18th 2022, 4:37pm

gerdson wrote: ↑
February 18th 2022, 1:51pm
 Who the hell is supposed to enter the cargo room and try to put out burning Lithium... You can only wait for it to burn out.
The Danish fire department recently presented a fire truck to be used for such. It is basically an open 20 foot container filled with water, and a crane to dip the burning Tesla or whatever in there.
One wonders how they plan to handle a car fire in an underground garage...
Several European countries have banned EV's from underground and public parking garages because of battery fires. The policy is spreading to cities in the US where it is left up to HOA's and the management companies of malls and sew Fourth. Lithium batteries burn extraordinarily hot and the fires spread quickly to other vehicles and structures. Some insurance companies in the US have raised premiums on homeowners policies for garaged EV's.

A dive boat on a weekend expedition caught fire off the coast of Santa Cruz due to a fire started by charging cell phones and electronics that overloaded the vessel's electrical system. The official version was that charging stations overheated as a result, caught fire, and ignited the batteries of the electronics that were plugged into them, quickly engulfing the boat. There were those who believed that as a result of the overload, overheated batteries started the fire, however, there were no surviving witnesses.

There was a consensus that burning lithium batteries contributed to the severity and rapid spread of the fire whether or not they actually started it. IIRC, the vessel burned to the water line in just a few hours and ultimately sunk in 50 feet of water. More than 30 people were killed.
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Re: Porsches are Burning

Post by conjurer » February 18th 2022, 11:31pm

3Flushes wrote: ↑
February 18th 2022, 4:37pm
gerdson wrote: ↑
February 18th 2022, 1:51pm
 Who the hell is supposed to enter the cargo room and try to put out burning Lithium... You can only wait for it to burn out.
The Danish fire department recently presented a fire truck to be used for such. It is basically an open 20 foot container filled with water, and a crane to dip the burning Tesla or whatever in there.
One wonders how they plan to handle a car fire in an underground garage...
Several European countries have banned EV's from underground and public parking garages because of battery fires. The policy is spreading to cities in the US where it is left up to HOA's and the management companies of malls and sew Fourth. Lithium batteries burn extraordinarily hot and spread quickly to other vehicles and structures. Some insurance companies in the US have raised premiums on homeowners policies for garaged EV's.

A dive boat on a weekend expedition caught fire off the coast of Santa Cruz due to a fire started by charging cell phones and electronics that overloaded the vessel's electrical system. The official version was that charging stations overheated as a result, caught fire, and ignited the batteries of the electronics that were plugged them, quickly engulfing the boat. There were those who believed that as a result of the overload, overheated batteries started the fire, however, there were no surviving witnesses.

There was a consensus that burning lithium batteries contributed to the severity and rapid spread of the fire whether or not they actually started it. IIRC, the vessel burned to the water line in just a few hours and ultimately sunk in 50 feet of water. More than 30 people were killed.
Wow. That blows. Also, high marks for the proper use of sew Fourth.
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Re: Porsches are Burning

Post by codguy » February 19th 2022, 7:35am

Hears some ideas,

1) hows about shipping the car to america USA with know batterys and instal with batterys produc'd in this country.

2) simply ship the vehicals without batterys and fly the batterys to final destinacion in Boeing 787's..... roumer has it that the 787's are now imune from lithium battery fires.



justa thought
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Re: Porsches are Burning

Post by codguy » February 19th 2022, 12:59pm

Datsun240Z71 wrote: ↑
February 19th 2022, 10:05am
 As the batteries are in the lower part of the frame/chassis and are integral part of the car, it would require major disassembly of the car, that would be difficult, cost prohibitive and really raise the price, especially on that scale.
Q= what happens when batterys knead to be replaced, They dont last forever
IDK; but perhaps the cars are throwaway ones like a used bic lighter...... that cant be enviromentally friendly i reckon.
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Re: Porsches are Burning

Post by bbattle » February 19th 2022, 4:01pm

Found this pretty comprehensive article; then drilled down to this:

When an EV battery pack reaches the end of its useful life in a vehicle, it is still likely to retain more than two-thirds of its initial energy storage capacity—for example, the range of a BEV decreasing from 300 to 200 miles (Hossain et al. 2019). In some cases, such batteries could be refurbished for use in another vehicle or in a lower-power, stationary application. For example, a market could emerge for using second-life batteries for low-cost energy storage for utilities and electricity consumers (Mobility House 2018; Mobility House 2016). With the growing use of BEVs, the economic potential for reusing their batteries could further decrease the cost of new EVs and increase the value of used EVs.

Globally, fewer than a dozen facilities recycle EV batteries today, with a combined material processing capacity of less than 100,000 metric tons annually. For 50 kWh batteries with a gravimetric energy density of 150 watt-hours per kilogram, this recycling capacity corresponds to 300,000 EV batteries per year, or roughly 10 percent of global annual EV sales today, but 1 percent of expected annual sales in the early 2030s (BNEF 2019). In the United States, such facilities are especially limited in both number and processing capacity. One key to enabling greater recycling capacity in the United States will be increasing the domestic manufacturing of batteries.........

Public policy will play an important role in enabling the wide-spread reuse of EV batteries and promoting the recycling of their constituent materials. Currently, national and regional policies for waste management and recycling do not consider the impact of large flows of EV batteries primarily because the BEV market did not exist when such policies went into place.

Lessons learned from recycling policies targeting consumer electronics and other automotive components can inform material handling and recycling policies for EV batteries. In addition, the United States can draw on the experience of other countries with major BEV markets, some of which are beginning to consider policies to address these issues. For example, China recently enacted extensive policy and guidelines for recycling EV batteries and promoting second-life uses (MIIT 2018). The policy directs manufacturers to design batteries that enable easier recycling and to provide technical information on proper storage and management. China also places responsibility for recycling on the vehicle manufacturer, a mechanism known as “extended producer responsibility.” The European Commission recently proposed extensive measures that would require collection of used batteries and set standards for recycled content in new batteries (EC 2020).

On a global level, the World Economic Forum has organized corporations, governments, and public interest groups around the world with the aim of solving key data transparency challenges related to EV batteries (WEF, n.d.). This consortium is developing standards for labeling batteries and sharing data, with the goal of providing access to critical information about battery chemistry and condition. Such information, mostly unavailable today, is critical for second-life and recycling applications and would enable the tracing of batteries’ proper-ties (e.g., chemical make-up, capacity, cycle/charging history) through the chain of ownership.



https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/ev-bat ... ne-content

So, the US is not ready for a flood of dead batteries. Dealing with hazardous waste and the mountains of regulatory paperwork are not for the faint of heart so I look to the established players in the waste market to take the lead.

Or, the meth labs will be stealing those batteries so they can continue cooking.
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Re: Porsches are Burning

Post by bbattle » February 19th 2022, 4:05pm

Found this pretty comprehensive article; then drilled down to this:

When an EV battery pack reaches the end of its useful life in a vehicle, it is still likely to retain more than two-thirds of its initial energy storage capacity—for example, the range of a BEV decreasing from 300 to 200 miles (Hossain et al. 2019). In some cases, such batteries could be refurbished for use in another vehicle or in a lower-power, stationary application. For example, a market could emerge for using second-life batteries for low-cost energy storage for utilities and electricity consumers (Mobility House 2018; Mobility House 2016). With the growing use of BEVs, the economic potential for reusing their batteries could further decrease the cost of new EVs and increase the value of used EVs.

Globally, fewer than a dozen facilities recycle EV batteries today, with a combined material processing capacity of less than 100,000 metric tons annually. For 50 kWh batteries with a gravimetric energy density of 150 watt-hours per kilogram, this recycling capacity corresponds to 300,000 EV batteries per year, or roughly 10 percent of global annual EV sales today, but 1 percent of expected annual sales in the early 2030s (BNEF 2019). In the United States, such facilities are especially limited in both number and processing capacity. One key to enabling greater recycling capacity in the United States will be increasing the domestic manufacturing of batteries.........

Public policy will play an important role in enabling the wide-spread reuse of EV batteries and promoting the recycling of their constituent materials. Currently, national and regional policies for waste management and recycling do not consider the impact of large flows of EV batteries primarily because the BEV market did not exist when such policies went into place.

Lessons learned from recycling policies targeting consumer electronics and other automotive components can inform material handling and recycling policies for EV batteries. In addition, the United States can draw on the experience of other countries with major BEV markets, some of which are beginning to consider policies to address these issues. For example, China recently enacted extensive policy and guidelines for recycling EV batteries and promoting second-life uses (MIIT 2018). The policy directs manufacturers to design batteries that enable easier recycling and to provide technical information on proper storage and management. China also places responsibility for recycling on the vehicle manufacturer, a mechanism known as “extended producer responsibility.” The European Commission recently proposed extensive measures that would require collection of used batteries and set standards for recycled content in new batteries (EC 2020).

On a global level, the World Economic Forum has organized corporations, governments, and public interest groups around the world with the aim of solving key data transparency challenges related to EV batteries (WEF, n.d.). This consortium is developing standards for labeling batteries and sharing data, with the goal of providing access to critical information about battery chemistry and condition. Such information, mostly unavailable today, is critical for second-life and recycling applications and would enable the tracing of batteries’ proper-ties (e.g., chemical make-up, capacity, cycle/charging history) through the chain of ownership.



https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/ev-bat ... ne-content

So, the US is not ready for a flood of dead batteries. Dealing with hazardous waste and the mountains of regulatory paperwork are not for the faint of heart so I look to the established players in the waste market to take the lead.

Or, the meth labs will be stealing those batteries so they can continue cooking.

Regarding the article, I was not reassured with all the subjective inputs. "Could, should, might, maybe, etc." are not good things in that they rarely happen in the rosy scenario timeline envisioned by the writer.
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Re: Porsches are Burning

Post by 3Flushes » February 19th 2022, 4:06pm

The following article is from Teselarati whom I 'spose could be just a bit biased, but while Porsche will not confirm the claims made, they haven't expressly denied them, either. Given a ship full is on fire, who knows................

Porsche Whistleblower: “60% of all delivered Taycan have battery issues that caused replacements, damages and fires”

https://www.teslarati.com/porsche-whist ... s-coverup/
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Re: Porsches are Burning

Post by 3Flushes » February 19th 2022, 4:25pm

bbattle wrote: ↑
February 19th 2022, 4:09pm
 Tesla has had its share of battery fires, too.

But 60% is not a sustainable number and it makes me wonder what Porsche is doing with all those faulty batteries.
If the Teslarati story is accurate, only bad cells are being replaced - comes to a large number of tossers nonetheless, and bad cells as opposed to diminished entire batteries couldn't be repurposed. Fires will continue to be an issue - I can imagine second-life batteries used by a utility for storing energy as your link suggests, burning down an entire power plant. There is much work to be done and I suppose industries will emerge around the issues - better chargers, fireproof containment systems / materials, recycling and whatnot. For now, a fine kettle of fish, indeed.
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Re: Porsches are Burning

Post by DocKlock » February 24th 2022, 6:51am

I haven't seen the Ford F-150 commercial for a while. The one where the house power goes out and a F-150 comes to the rescue by "plugging" into the house and viola -- virtually every light in the house comes on and all is well.
After a while, your F150 is as dead as a doornail. You have to bring in a generator and charge it for a couple of days OR get a Jerdan carrier and haul it out of there.
What the commercial doesn't show is the thousands of dollars needed to buy and install electronics etc to isolate your house from the grid and provide emergency outlets to use.
Here's some simple questions from a simple person:
Not a good idea to park your battery car in the garage to charge it -- FIRE.
No room in driveway to park it - So it goes on the street. Running an extension cord out to your car seems kinda dumb. (what about alternate side parking?)
Need a power upgrade unless you want to wait many, many hours for a charge.
Most of the manufactures rate their 'mileage' at 100% battery capacity, yet most "recommend" charging only to 80%.
Where I live, it gets cold in the winter (DUH). Batteries lose a lot in the winter. Using battery for heat, defrost, wipers, radio etc PLUS powering the car = shorter life span/drive time.
Driving a long distance doesn't inspire confidence that a charging station will work or be available for you. Suppose someone is just started using it and you don't have enough juice to drive to the next station (which may or not be working/available.
Our electrical infrastructure simply isn't ready for the proposed mass of electric cars.
I could go on and on and on about the real practical value of electric cars.
I'm a 77 year old fart and will drive gas powered cars till I can't drive anymore.
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Re: Porsches are Burning

Post by smellody » February 24th 2022, 11:01am

DocKlock wrote: ↑
February 24th 2022, 6:51am
 I haven't seen the Ford F-150 commercial for a while. The one where the house power goes out and a F-150 comes to the rescue by "plugging" into the house and viola -- virtually every light in the house comes on and all is well.
After a while, your F150 is as dead as a doornail. You have to bring in a generator and charge it for a couple of days OR get a Jerdan carrier and haul it out of there.
What the commercial doesn't show is the thousands of dollars needed to buy and install electronics etc to isolate your house from the grid and provide emergency outlets to use.
Here's some simple questions from a simple person:
Not a good idea to park your battery car in the garage to charge it -- FIRE.
No room in driveway to park it - So it goes on the street. Running an extension cord out to your car seems kinda dumb. (what about alternate side parking?)
Need a power upgrade unless you want to wait many, many hours for a charge.
Most of the manufactures rate their 'mileage' at 100% battery capacity, yet most "recommend" charging only to 80%.
Where I live, it gets cold in the winter (DUH). Batteries lose a lot in the winter. Using battery for heat, defrost, wipers, radio etc PLUS powering the car = shorter life span/drive time.
Driving a long distance doesn't inspire confidence that a charging station will work or be available for you. Suppose someone is just started using it and you don't have enough juice to drive to the next station (which may or not be working/available.
Our electrical infrastructure simply isn't ready for the proposed mass of electric cars.
I could go on and on and on about the real practical value of electric cars.
I'm a 77 year old fart and will drive gas powered cars till I can't drive anymore.
Agree 100%
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Re: Porsches are Burning

Post by 3Flushes » February 24th 2022, 2:09pm

smellody wrote: ↑
February 24th 2022, 11:01am
DocKlock wrote: ↑
February 24th 2022, 6:51am
 I haven't seen the Ford F-150 commercial for a while. The one where the house power goes out and a F-150 comes to the rescue by "plugging" into the house and viola -- virtually every light in the house comes on and all is well.
After a while, your F150 is as dead as a doornail. You have to bring in a generator and charge it for a couple of days OR get a Jerdan carrier and haul it out of there.
What the commercial doesn't show is the thousands of dollars needed to buy and install electronics etc to isolate your house from the grid and provide emergency outlets to use.
Here's some simple questions from a simple person:
Not a good idea to park your battery car in the garage to charge it -- FIRE.
No room in driveway to park it - So it goes on the street. Running an extension cord out to your car seems kinda dumb. (what about alternate side parking?)
Need a power upgrade unless you want to wait many, many hours for a charge.
Most of the manufactures rate their 'mileage' at 100% battery capacity, yet most "recommend" charging only to 80%.
Where I live, it gets cold in the winter (DUH). Batteries lose a lot in the winter. Using battery for heat, defrost, wipers, radio etc PLUS powering the car = shorter life span/drive time.
Driving a long distance doesn't inspire confidence that a charging station will work or be available for you. Suppose someone is just started using it and you don't have enough juice to drive to the next station (which may or not be working/available.
Our electrical infrastructure simply isn't ready for the proposed mass of electric cars.
I could go on and on and on about the real practical value of electric cars.
I'm a 77 year old fart and will drive gas powered cars till I can't drive anymore.
Agree 100%
+ me.........

I wonder if GM's target of producing an all electric fleet by 2025 is going to hold up.
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Re: Porsches are Burning

Post by jason_recliner » February 26th 2022, 3:44pm

I don't understand the dislike some have for electric cars. My next car will probably be a BEV. Lithium batteries have their weaknesses - mass, cost, and environmental impacts - but they are a necessary transition technology as hydrogen is still decades away.
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Re: Porsches are Burning

Post by smellody » February 26th 2022, 4:40pm

jason_recliner wrote: ↑
February 26th 2022, 3:44pm
 I don't understand the dislike some have for electric cars. My next car will probably be a BEV. Lithium batteries have their weaknesses - mass, cost, and environmental impacts - but they are a necessary transition technology as hydrogen is still decades away.
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