Hello to all from Silent Sam

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Hello to all from Silent Sam

Post by Guest » February 9th 2011, 3:07pm

A few days ago, a friend of mine informed me of the November 5th discussion here on watchlords about one of my old posts from watchfreeks.com regarding the possibility of Invicta using non-Eta 7750 movements. So I joined up to see what is going on. I am both delighted and surprised at what I've read. My original post was placed to get folks thinking about the possibility. It seems I've succeeded in my goal to some extent.

I was and still am speculating about this matter myself. I was and still am not making any claims whether it is true or not. I do not know. Based on information passed to me in mid-summer by one of the members the Swiss Family who founded Victorinox, I believe it is true Eta is not presently dealing directly with Invicta and hasn't in some time. However, another friend who is a Swiss trained and practicing watchmaker here in the States also recently informed me that Victorinox is a well known major source for Eta movements for those companies and parties who cannot buy certain movements directly from ETA. This includes the 7750 and other mechanical/automatic movements. However, he also informed me the quality of these movements is not always quite as good as those which come directly from Eta. This has a number of implications which I'd not considered.

Learning of the existance of this indirect outlet has given me some more insight into how the industry works. It seems Eta has a back door through which they can provide Eta movements to those companies who can't buy them at the front door. I should have realized such a practice exists. Eta can, on the surface, adhere to their own policies while still making more profits from their production. This allows them to save face, and also allows them to move production which may not quite measure up to their usual QC/QA standards. It's a win, win for them.

After all, business is business, and the Swiss are among the most cagey and clever business people in the world. It's all about the bucks in the end isn't it. Shoulda figured on this, but then again, I'm just a layman and not an industry insider.
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Re: Hello to all from Silent Sam

Post by eddiea » February 9th 2011, 5:26pm

I would guess the suggestion is that a "reject" ETA secundary market , meaning those ebauches that for whatever reason don't meet the first ETA QA cut , are then sale through a back door to companies not able to purchase it directly at the front door (Invicta as an example)....for unknown reasons.
That is interesting but ETA/Swatch reputation is not been taking into consideration here...I would think that if that is this case, a disclaimer complete with an ebauche special marking/s will be in place for those "ETA QA rejects" before is sold to any somewhat lesser (to call them something) companies.
Also, can't think of a reason for a back door , for companies with the cash on hand, no matter who they are, at the end of the day ETA is not responsible for the ebauches usage after sale , they are however, responsible for the quality of the product they sale and they do offer a warranty to back that up.
My thoughts have always been that, Invicta uses lots of gray market ebauches , gray (not comming from ETA directly) doesn't mean they are of lesser quality in any way or form, to those sold directly, nor that the practice is illegal....also thing that it is a possibility that after the patent expired on 7750's, 2824's and so on, they have been using Chinese made clones who are a lesser ebauche, compare to the the ETA made counterpart.
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Re: Hello to all from Silent Sam

Post by Datsun240Z71 » February 10th 2011, 3:46am

From reading Silent Sam's posts when I used to visit the "Original" Invicta Forum at WTF, I agree that many of his claims were speculative, but I give him credit for fighting the good fight over there against mindsets (if you will) comparable to that of members at WGs.

Welcome Sam.
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Re: Hello to all from Silent Sam

Post by boscoe » February 10th 2011, 3:48am

Datsun240Z71 wrote:From reading Silent Sam's posts when I used to visit the "Original" Invicta Forum at WTF, I agree that many of his claims were speculative, but I give him credit for fighting the good fight over there against mindsets (if you will) comparable to that of members at WGs.

Welcome Sam.


Ditto
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Re: Hello to all from Silent Sam

Post by Gators5220 » February 10th 2011, 4:14am

I have no problem with speculation, but Silent Sam seems to always state things as facts, claims sources, but NEVER backs up his claims with evidence. The reason I believe the Sandstone and Diamond fakes with Invicta is because there is legitimate evidence that shows me the materials are not what they claimed to be.
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Re: Hello to all from Silent Sam

Post by Datsun240Z71 » February 10th 2011, 4:20am

Unfortunately, when it comes to Invicta, facts are few and far between, because the entire company and it's history, factories, marketing claims, customer service, quality control, parts inventory and such all seem to be somewhat fictitious.

Definitions of fictitious on the Web:•fabricated: formed or conceived by the imagination; "a fabricated excuse for his absence"; "a fancied wrong"; "a fictional character"
•assumed: adopted in order to deceive; "an assumed name"; "an assumed cheerfulness"; "a fictitious address"; "fictive sympathy"; "a pretended interest"; "a put-on childish voice"; "sham modesty"
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

•Not real; invented; contrived
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fictitious

•fictitiously - in a false manner intended to mislead
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

•fictitiousness - The state of being fictitious
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fictitiousness

•fictitiously - In a fictitious manner
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fictitiously

•it is accompanied by the awareness of a different reality
game.askdefine.com/
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Re: Hello to all from Silent Sam

Post by eddiea » February 10th 2011, 7:55am

Datsun240Z71 wrote:Unfortunately, when it comes to Invicta, facts are few and far between, because the entire company and it's history, factories, marketing claims, customer service, quality control, parts inventory and such all seem to be somewhat fictitious.

Regarless, the OP post makes no sense, is in essence contradictory and mainly refers to ETA alleged business practices not Invicta, with no facts to support his claims...
Several folks have had their asses chewed in this forum for doing the same thing, speculating with no proof, leaving that intangible seed of doubt based solely on speculation with no solid evidences, makes everyone here looks stupid.
Last edited by Anonymous on February 10th 2011, 8:02am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hello to all from Silent Sam

Post by Datsun240Z71 » February 10th 2011, 8:00am

eddiea wrote:
Datsun240Z71 wrote:Unfortunately, when it comes to Invicta, facts are few and far between, because the entire company and it's history, factories, marketing claims, customer service, quality control, parts inventory and such all seem to be somewhat fictitious.

Regarless, the OP post makes no sense, is in essence contradictory and mainly refers to ETA not Invicta, with no facts to support his claims...
Several folks have had their asses chewed in this forum for doing the same thing, speculating with no proof, leaving that intangible seed of doubt based solely on speculation, with no solid evidences makes, everyone here looks stupid.


I was in no way condoning rumor or speculation, as I agree that facts and truth are and should be what drives most of us here at WatchLords, and that credibility is tantamount in regard to our efforts to expose the truth. I was only pointing out the obvious; that most things Invicta and the distortions espoused by their various minions fuel that speculation and drive the rumor mill.
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Re: Hello to all from Silent Sam

Post by Guest » February 10th 2011, 3:39pm

As usual, some folks will interpret as they want regardless of what has been posted. A few of the responders should first learn what an ebauche movement is before claiming I used the term. I didn't. I also did not use the term reject.

But OK. Here are some facts. According to it's own published claims, Eta no longer sells ebauche movements to the industry and hasn't for several years. They did sell completed, ready to install movements to approved customers up until 2010. Supposedly, they have stopped this practice too. At least, this is what they have openly claimed as their intention. We have all seen enough evidence Invicta is not one of Eta's approved customers already.

As for Victorinox selling Eta movements to customers which may not be on Eta's approved list, I have no reason to doubt the word of my Swiss trained and very competant watchmaking friend. He has nothing to gain by fabricating anything, and has his own credibility to lose if he does. So why would he? He has told me he has bought some of these movements from Victorinox for supplying his shop. He has also told me most of these movements are not quite ready for installation. Unlike the movemets he has purchased directly from ETA, these ones purchased from Victorinox need work to sufficiently regulate them and make them right before they can be satisfactorily installed in his customers' watches.

It stands to reason Victorinox, which is a substantial watch making company in it's own right, is obviously an approved Eta customer (this should be pretty easy to verify). They are currently offering a substantial number of Eta powered automatic three hand and chronograph models. It also stands to reason they would not be supplying Eta movements to other companies and individuals unless they had tacit approval from Eta to do so. Otherwise, they would be jeapardizing their own movement supply and therefore, their watch business.

I suggest some of us do a bit more thinking and a bit less reacting. Perhaps then we won't need to have everyone else supply us with facts and figures to understand some obvious truths.

Anyone can use insults to try to discredit others. Most of us have understood this since we were preschoolers. It's a lot harder to do so with logic and sound thinking like a reasoning adult.
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Re: Hello to all from Silent Sam

Post by foghorn » February 10th 2011, 4:13pm

I understood that ETA continued to supply ebauches,though in increasingly limited numbers based on an agreement with the Swiss Anti-trust Committee, through 2010.


"Supposedly, they have stopped this practice too. At least, this is what they have openly claimed as their intention. We have all seen enough evidence Invicta is not one of Eta's approved customers already"





What you stated above as part of "some facts" isn't a fact-just supposition and hearsay.


You do raise a topic worthy of discussion,but the presentation leaves a lot to be desired.
I,for one, won't go to the bank based on what an anonymous "Swiss -trained" watchmaker contends. I know a few "Swiss trained " watchmakers and though they are competent watchmakers their industry knowledge isn't always what it should be.
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Re: Hello to all from Silent Sam

Post by Guest » February 10th 2011, 4:43pm

Well, considering some of the responses we've seen here, I think anyone with any intelligence would understand why my friend will remain anonymous. I have seen his work and have come to trust his knowledge and his opinions. However, I understand and accept your right to doubt anything you wish to.

As far as Eta and their policies, I've come to realize they are doing a lot of posturing. It's just part of the watch and jewelry business and has been for many years. It's all about appearances and public image. How else could they sell something worth no more than a few hundred dollars for thousands if not more.
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Re: Hello to all from Silent Sam

Post by foghorn » February 10th 2011, 4:55pm

silent sam wrote:Well, considering some of the responses we've seen here, I think anyone with any intelligence would understand why my friend will remain anonymous. I have seen his work and have come to trust his knowledge and his opinions. However, I understand and accept your right to doubt anything you wish to.

That's a bit of a condescending statement. Being a competent watchmaker hardly translates into industry knowledge. Anyone with intelligence would know that. You seem to be particularly gullible but nevertheless I offer many thanks to you for accepting my right to an opinion.

As far as Eta and their policies, I've come to realize they are doing a lot of posturing. It's just part of the watch and jewelry business and has been for many years. It's all about appearances and public image. How else could they sell something worth no more than a few hundred dollars for thousands if not more.
Amazing realization,well done! You are wise beyond your years,which I wager aren't all that many.
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Re: Hello to all from Silent Sam

Post by eddiea » February 10th 2011, 4:58pm

@SS you are adding nothing new to your original post, nor you are addressing any of the voids in it...like claims of a supposedly existing ETA"back door" through which somehow, lesser quality ETA movements, go out to certain buyers that for reasons known only to your unnamed "Swiss trained and practicing watchmaker" "can't buy them at the front door"
So don't patronize us with the "I suggest some of us do a bit more thinking and a bit less reacting" bullshit line... you are the one in need to think before your post unsubstantiated claims on a reputable company, based on gut feelings, or backed solely by anonymous friends and members of a Swiss Family.
It is is very doubtful that a company the size of ETA/Swatch will risk their reputation to move old inventory in times when they can't keep up with demand.
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Re: Hello to all from Silent Sam

Post by Watch Noob » February 10th 2011, 5:02pm

I love the beauty of having WIS's here at WatchLords that give a vigorus screening process to the newbies. Well done everyone, SS, I believe it's your serve.
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Re: Hello to all from Silent Sam

Post by Guest » February 10th 2011, 9:38pm

I am speculating about this and not making any claims and I do not know if it is true, but I do believe there's a possibility, it seems, supposedly at least. We have all seen enough evidence so it stands to reason, obviously, and this should be pretty easy to verify, if only some of us do a bit more thinking and a bit less reacting. I do believe there's a possibility the cow jumped over the moon.
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Re: Hello to all from Silent Sam

Post by koimaster » February 10th 2011, 10:31pm

I think this is not the first time some have speculated.

http://watchandclockforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=147&t=5199




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OWC Movement Choice – the difficult question - (revised 22/1
Hi All
From the outset, I am passionate about watches and clocks. I own over 1,200 watches and about 100 clocks. I see them as beautiful little machines, not as tradable commodities. I have Quartz watches; yes I have a few Ebel watches.

OWC have been very careful in the choice of movements. Would I go mechanical or quartz? It was an easy decision - mechanical

I have much respect for the ETA2824-2 movement, so too for the AS2066, the AS1920, the Enicar AR1125 and AR165, the Zenith cal 135. There are some many good movements, but to choose a movement that is in current production, that does not cost too much and will deliver the reliability, performance and cache, is difficult.

The Japanese have excellent movements as well, and many watches use these, possibly the most popular amount the non-Japanese makers is the Miyota movements. But in the ever crowded mechanical watch market, the cache still seems to be with the Swiss.

The ETA 2824-2 is a good movement and everyone has a watch with an ETA2824-2 and if you do not you have rocks in your head – that’s what I have been told. So no one will buy a watch without a Swiss movement and definitely without an ETA2824-2. So I needed an ETA2824-2 – no question that is that.

I went to ETA and said “Please Sir may I buy some movements from you”... To which they said no. They stated this publically that they will not be supplying any more new small or medium clients and eventually will be restricting movement (mechanical) supply ONLY to members of the Swatch Group. Well the conclusions are obvious for all small and medium makers.

Well how can I sell a watch without a Swiss movement? This is commercial suicide. But I found the Grey Market. Excellent so I can get any number of ETA2824-2/36-2 at a reasonable price and that was fantastic. Oh yes I was assured, “we supply all the small and medium sized firms both inside and outside Switzerland”.

OK we were all good, I ordered my first 20 movements and all was going according to plan. Until my watchmaker said there was something wrong..... Out of my 20 movements 5 were real and 15 were fake – very nice fakes, but illegal copies with ETA stamped in all the right places.

I will stop right here and say – this is my experience. I have been banned from one Forum for pointing out the obvious and sharing my experience. This is my experience, and you can draw your own conclusions from this tale.

I found out that the Grey Market for ETA mechanical movements is basically a way for the Chinese to sell counterfeit product. Copies of ETA 2824-2 and 2836-2 are the most widespread.

When you do your sums it makes perfect sense. ETA do not make that many ETA2824-2/2836-2 movements, to satisfy all their legitimate clients, plus the small and medium sized watch companies (that all have a model with a ETA 2824-2) plus all the copy watches that claim they have a real ETA. So ipso facto I was buying counterfeit, and so were/are the majority of the small and medium sized watch companies, but I cannot really say this…

So there would apparently no way (aside from buying ETA 2824-2 at retail prices) to get a real ETA into my product at a commercial price....My dreams were on hold.

I should investigate the Miyota option. Well it all seemed to difficult. An unknown watchmaker using Japanese movements seemed again commercial suicide.

I turned the equation around; I will be honest, truthful and above all transparent. I will use Chinese movements that are Chinese movements, rather than Chinese movement masquerading as Swiss movements. That will be a recipe for certain failure.

I was lucky to discover that aside from the illegal movement copies the Chinese actually make movements under their own names, Shanghai, Sea-Gull, Hangzhou, Nanning to name a few. This new area was fascinating and exciting. But who were good and who were not.

It took close to 2 years of trying and trying to get someone from the Chinese movement companies to even acknowledge my emails and phone calls. But during that time I had decided that Sea-Gull would be my marque.

Sea-Gull is the Premier Watch and Movement maker in China. It has been supplying parts to the Swiss Watch Industry for many years and many Sea-Gull parts are legally manufactured into Swiss movements (see Valanvron, Claro Smeg CL888). I prefer not to buy these Swiss Movements. But rather stay true to Sea-Gull and offer a 100% Sea-Gull product made in China.

But they are Chinese and have the China Made stigma. However the top grade Sea-Gull movements are as good if not better than their Swiss counterparties. They offer significant price advantage – so I say Swiss beware. But a rose by any other name would still smell so sweet.

Still feeling the China Bashing, and knowing it will continue for some time, I needed a Swiss movement made in Switzerland from a well know company. And I wanted it to be better than the ETA equivalent.

Again, unless you are a reasonably big player even the other Swiss makers (Sellita, ISA, Technotime, and Soprod), will not talk to you either. I kept asking how do small makers get Swiss movements...the answer nearly always came up to the Grey Market or the Movement Brokers.... I am not big enough, I do not have the right connections and I live in the wrong part of the world to know the real answer. But I know there is something not quite right

Still I persisted and, I knocked on the Soprod door (again), presented my credentials, told them I was a small micro maker from country New South Wales, and waited. Eventually they agreed.

The Soprod A-10 offers significant advantages over its competitor the 2892-A2, hence it is my choice for the "Flag Ship" models.

The Sea-Gull ST-2100 series of movements will function as the base line, with the ST1800 Series providing additional refinements with a price advantage over the A-10. For the complications, I have always been a fan of the Venus 175 chronograph movement, so the obvious choice the ST-1900 series from Sea-Gull. Personally I am not a fan of the manual winding watches. So to my surprise, Sea-Gull have produced the ST-1940 an automatic version. So this will complete the line-up for now.

(I have been approached by the Nanning Watch Factory in China. Their movements are Miyota based and have additional pricing advantages; I do not have any immediate plans to extend the range lower).

So I have entered into an alliance with Sea-Gull of China and Soprod of Switzerland, and will be offering their movements. Unless we offer a special Vintage piece, we will NOT be offering ANY ETA based watches. This is not saying I am limiting the range to these companies; other options are still being investigated.

While movement choice, as both technically and price driven, it is more, an ethical choice.


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Re: Hello to all from Silent Sam

Post by eddiea » February 11th 2011, 6:56am

Read that before , Orange Watch Company(OWC) issues are different...the owner is claiming ETA refused to sell him movements, so he when to the gray market instead, got burned by his supplier with fakes and finally when the Seagull/Soprod way...
Don't know the guy and have no clue if his tale is factual or not but he is not speculating, simply justifying the movement switching on his brand...and of course, praising his new choices over ETA...(that BTW I'm totally in desagrement )
Appears that this guy never found the mythical ETA "back door" for movements sales...a shame.
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Re: Hello to all from Silent Sam

Post by eddiea » February 11th 2011, 7:15am

Rose wrote: if only some of us do a bit more thinking and a bit less reacting.

Like I told SS above... more thinking needs to be done before posting unsubstantiated claims that amounts to crap, not the other way around..... same with the condescending bullshit tone in his posts, warranty to get a reaction every time.
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