Watchlords

I don't see how you would think anything in your post is a "slap" to me. Nothing disputes anything I've said. It's an attempt at an explanation why they practice as they do.

So the government can't control the very broad spectrum of counterfiets and very harmful products being exported and it may not be in their best interest to do so. I think the emphasis should be placed on "not in their best interest" meaning income. I get that.

AT, I'm not saying that China's problems are not complex and vast in nature. However, I don't think this is a very good excuse to victmize the rest of the world.

I don't think legitimate companies that have poured money and hard work into R&D and quality workmanship should have to accept being raped and ripped off because "China just can't help it".

And we're just talking counterfiets. This doesn't even take into account the moral obligation not to export harmful products like toys painted with lead based paint, etc.

China has fucked themselves with their doctrine. They have an obligation to un-fuck themselves and quit fucking everybody else.

Ditchdoc wrote:China has fucked themselves with their doctrine. They have an obligation to un-fuck themselves and quit fucking everybody else.

I'm an anti-communist and I largely agree. The problem is there's no magic-wand way to do it. I sincerely think they are trying to do exactly what you ask: "un-fuck themselves and quit fucking everybody else".

(And there's also the issue that---very sadly---many in the country had very, very good reason to think---or at least hope---that a government led by Mao would be better than what they had).

As I asked, "What would you do if you were in control? How would you balance things, and how quickly would you do what, if you truly cared about your people? How would you get from where they are to where you'd like them to be?"

And would anything you can think of be quick enough to satisfy you, especially without causing huge chaos?

I'll leave you with the final word here if you'd like, Ditchdoc or ...if Falstaff cares to reply to my earlier response to his morning post, perhaps we can leave him with the last word.

Anything further, let's take it to PMs.

That is not my problem nor my area of expertise. I am no politician. I cannot be expected to know the solutions for a countries problems that I had no hand in making. No more than I would expect Mao to figure a Dopamine drip, figure a sliding scale insulin regimen or perform an emergency tracheotomy. If politics were my profession, I assure you I could develop a more effective plan that what they have now for addressing these issues. It can be done.

I do know that they do not appear to be doing anything but giving the issues lip service while condoning it behind the scenes. Pissing on our shoes and telling us its raining, if you will.

I also know that it can be un-fucked much faster than it is being done which is seemingly not at all. Sure, they may take a hit to their economy but they will learn other ways as every other country has. They will also gain global respect and more willingness for economic cooperation and assistance fixing these problems.

Still this "we can't help it because we have to look out for number one" defense is no excuse for screwing the rest of the planet.

I am done as well. I'm signing off. We will just have to agree to disagree about China's ethical value.

So the consensus is ...fuck China.

eddiea wrote:So the consensus is ...fuck China.

That would only mean something if right and wrong was a popularity contest.

(Falstaff...where is you? )

Ditchdoc wrote: We will just have to agree to disagree about China's ethical value.

No need to desagree Ken , there is no such thing a China's ethical value...they simply have none.

It's good to see that AT is not getting baited into every Chinese related post anymore.

Sickening.

I miss those WL days even if it takes resurrecting a 12 year old kerfuffle to remind me. I submit it constitutes evidence that a little life being injected into our own politics and religion subfora might be, if nothing else, entertaining. Granted, that's coming from someone who has worn the same GS for the last year - which drains most all the charm out of personal participation in a WUAW thread.

What else happened in 12 years? Well, the NIH estimated 16,000 dogs dying in illegal fights per year in the US back in '22. And that's despite the practice being illegal.

Our NIH numbers seem a bit hinky as the "deaths per day" shouldn't equal the total amount of dogs bred for sport fighting but that's what happens when you multiply 44 by 365. Someone should really look into that apparent anomaly - I can't be arsed to chase the footnote right now: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9454875/

As of 2013 the Swiss practice of eating dogs - and the occasional cat persists. I couldn't find any estimates of the numbers but it's not illegal provided the slaughter isn't overly cruel. Seems it's clustered in the Appenzell and St Gallen areas.

Number of dogs kept as pets in China exceeds 50 million counting only the urban areas. If someone can track down the dog meals in Switzerland the per-capita might be interesting. Per capita, we're fucking up more dogs than the Chinese. We're not eating them but I can't believe that dying in a pit is all that pleasant.

Ordinarily I tend to view moral equivalence arguments with a jaundiced eye but they can arguably be appropriate against a backdrop of selective outrage.

But mostly I miss the sometimes free-wheeling nature of the forum from which this thread was archived and subsequently resurrected. A couple more and I might be inspired to try stirring it up myself - just for old time's sake.

Hawk wrote: ↑

October 18th 2023, 1:18pm

...But mostly I miss the sometimes free-wheeling nature of the forum from which this thread was archived...

+me

I'll mix in.

I've eaten a bunch of different animals. Not dog, yet, but I probably would give it a try so I can't really judge. I do feel that the Chinese dog farms are really cruel and factory farming should be phased out (we 're on the way here in Australia). It's okay to eat high welfare ethically raised and slaughtered animals but not battery chickens etc etc.

jason_recliner wrote: ↑

October 18th 2023, 6:03pm

I've eaten a bunch of different animals. Not dog, yet, but I probably would give it a try so I can't really judge. I do feel that the Chinese dog farms are really cruel and factory farming should be phased out (we 're on the way here in Australia). It's okay to eat high welfare ethically raised and slaughtered animals but not battery chickens etc etc.

I believe the closest Pyongyang Restaurant location to you is in Jakarta. Pretty cheap if you don't use Qantas.

Can't speak to how they farm dogs for their soup - might even be local supply. You can grab some bear-based aphrodisiac while you're at it. The wait staff is reminiscent of Japanese maid cafes. Jakarta banned dog meat trade earlier this year but I don't know if this will immediately impact the Pyongyang chain. Neither am I at all clear if the ban extends past Jakarta city.

Lots of water under the bridge in the last 12 years. https://apnews.com/article/indonesia-ba ... bc1021f56b

Many countries and territories across Asia—such as the Philippines, Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong, Thailand and Malaysia—have already banned the dog meat trade and consumption of dogs, according to the HSI.

Although I suppose it should be noted that it remains legal in a bunch of places, or to borrow from a travel brochure:

If you are in Hanoi and you are eager to try this dish, please come to a restaurant on Nhat Tan Street - Tay Ho District. Typically, a chef will choose one of seven ways to cook dog, collectively known as "cầy tơ 7 món". You can choose steamed dog meat, dog sausage, steamed dog in shrimp paste, ginger and rice vinegar, grilled dog meat, bamboo shoots and dog bone marrow or fried dog in lemon grass and chili. Here, you can see groups of customers who seated on mats spending their evenings on sharing plates of dog meat and drinking alcohol.

Given how widespread the practice was, and in many cases remains, it would *almost* make one wonder why China was singled out for special attention. My working assumption was that it was to bait AT, and perhaps poor old Hawk as well. Gods help me, I almost miss Spanky.

3Flushes wrote: ↑

October 18th 2023, 5:50pm

Hawk wrote: ↑

October 18th 2023, 1:18pm

...But mostly I miss the sometimes free-wheeling nature of the forum from which this thread was archived...

+me

I'll mix in.

I'm not sure if that makes quorum. But it's an auspicious start, by golly.

Hawk wrote: ↑

October 19th 2023, 10:51am

3Flushes wrote: ↑

October 18th 2023, 5:50pm

Hawk wrote: ↑

October 18th 2023, 1:18pm

...But mostly I miss the sometimes free-wheeling nature of the forum from which this thread was archived...

+me

I'll mix in.

I'm not sure if that makes quorum. But it's an auspicious start, by golly.

Fuck China.
Fuck Obama.
Fuck Trump.
Let's go Brandon.
Fuck Shithole countries (brown people).
Fuck immigrants.
Fuck white guys.
Fuck the gays.
Fuck Hillary and lock her ass up!
Fuck any gender beyond male/female
Fuck this
Fuck That
Fuck them
and Fuck you too.


LET'S GO!

iwasbanned wrote: ↑

October 19th 2023, 11:20am

Hawk wrote: ↑

October 19th 2023, 10:51am

3Flushes wrote: ↑

October 18th 2023, 5:50pm

+me

I'll mix in.

I'm not sure if that makes quorum. But it's an auspicious start, by golly.

Fuck China.
Fuck Obama.
Fuck Trump.
Let's go Brandon.
Fuck Shithole countries (brown people).
Fuck immigrants.
Fuck white guys.
Fuck the gays.
Fuck Hillary and lock her ass up!
Fuck any gender beyond male/female
Fuck this
Fuck That
Fuck them
and Fuck you too.


LET'S GO!

Fuck off?

smellody wrote: ↑

October 19th 2023, 11:21am

Fuck off?

Hawk wrote: ↑

October 19th 2023, 10:47am

I believe the closest Pyongyang Restaurant location to you is in Jakarta. Pretty cheap if you don't use Qantas.

Can't speak to how they farm dogs for their soup - might even be local supply.

It was easy to find in Hanoi when I was there but that was a long time ago. I wouldn't go looking for it, but might try it if it happened to be on the menu somewhere, out of curiosity. Unfortunately it almost certainly is not ethically farmed - Asians generally don't care about animals. For that reason (and still some queasiness) not sure I'd want to support the industry by ordering some.

I had a Korean man in my research group in school and he told me that in South Korea at least, they bred a specific breed of dog to be eaten.

bbattle wrote: ↑

October 19th 2023, 4:42pm

I had a Korean man in my research group in school and he told me that in South Korea at least, they bred a specific breed of dog to be eaten.

Yep, same in China. Most of the dog eaten in Vietnamese cities came from Chinese farms, at least when I was there. There was a full carcass at a market in the mountains that looked very fresh, that might have been a local animal. The meat looked superb, very high quality, very deep red, almost burgundy, like venison, hence why I think I would possibly try it under the right circumstances.

There is a broad diversity in humans regards to diet and menu. Humane harvesting methods demanded universally across protein sources is the ticket.

It's how they slaughter them. In cambodia they torture them first cause they believe it adds flavour to the meat. These poor creatures endure extreme in humane treatment like electrocution, severing limbs and beatings before they are killed. They don't get the benefit of a quick death but a long and lingering period of pain fear and suffering before they die.
There is no fucking justification for such treatment.

majt wrote: ↑

October 19th 2023, 7:38pm

It's how they slaughter them. In cambodia they torture them first cause they believe it adds flavour to the meat. These poor creatures endure extreme in humane treatment like electrocution, severing limbs and beatings before they are killed. They don't get the benefit of a quick death but a long and lingering period of pain fear and suffering before they die.
There is no fucking justification for such treatment.

OK, that's just disgusting. Enough to put me off visiting until they stamp it out.

jason_recliner wrote: ↑

October 19th 2023, 7:46pm

OK, that's just disgusting. Enough to put me off visiting until they stamp it out.

Well, right there we see what can happen when we resurrect 12 year old threads. A full 8 years after the thread was born China banned dog meat nationally. Also in 2020 Siem Reap province in Cambodia did likewise. It should also be noted that the opposition was internal in the countries involved. Far as I can tell western Twitter hashtags had squat all to do with it. Even Yulin trying to stage a comeback mostly fell flat on its ass.

Although to the point at hand: I've also been forced to question the admittedly wide spread notion that torture is routine when killing dogs for meat. I haven't been able to back it up and it's probably not going to get easier as time marches on. Apparently I'm not the only one having problems verifying torture - the Wiki page is a mess but at least cites the obvious problem that such cases are a bitch to find post-2015. Anyone interested can go chase the footnotes.

Animal rights activists and campaigners, however, claim that the animals are treated cruelly. Some media outlets have reported that dogs are intentionally tortured or boiled alive to improve the taste of their meat.[6] Several other reports have stated that since 2015 there has been little evidence for those allegations.[7][8][better source needed] The festival is a relatively recent event, not rooted in tradition, but rather created in 2010 by dog traders to increase their profits.

(emphasis mine).

It doesn't help my overall credulity that I'm a witness to western observers completely fucking up based on rumors and social media twits. The "abused Thai coconut monkey" narrative stubbornly persists despite being debunked by NPR seven fucking years ago. And, in this specific case, I also have the evidence of my own damn eyes after seeing the Surat Thani training facility and watching harvesting. If that's "abuse" then sign my ass up to get abused.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/20 ... ng-animals

After watching the animal rights crowd get all spun up over 100% grade A, USDA certified bullshit on monkeys harvesting coconuts it's perhaps introduced skepticism and bias that wouldn't otherwise be there. Perhaps there's issues in Sri Lanka or India? Beats the fuck out of me but PETA sure homed in on the one place it wasn't a problem.

jason_recliner wrote: ↑

October 19th 2023, 3:49pm

It was easy to find in Hanoi when I was there but that was a long time ago. I wouldn't go looking for it, but might try it if it happened to be on the menu somewhere, out of curiosity. Unfortunately it almost certainly is not ethically farmed - Asians generally don't care about animals. For that reason (and still some queasiness) not sure I'd want to support the industry by ordering some.

I remain optimistic that we'll meet up one day for some pints even if Alex Jones delays resolution on wagers interminably.

If that happens I would strongly suggest you keep the highlighted portion between us should my wife be in attendance. She still supports a dog rescue in Sukhothai and her sister rescues a more limited quantity in Nakhon Si Thammarat. In fact I can't think of a single Asian that I'm acquainted with that wouldn't bristle when hearing that. And most of the Asians of my acquaintance are in, well, Asia. It's not like they picked it up from Yankee, Canadian or Ozian culture.

It'd probably be unfair to base a stereotype, in the case of us Yanks, on Qyntel Woods and / or Michael Vicks. Apocryphal tales notwithstanding most well-adjusted humans revile animal cruelty. Food sourcing is one thing, torture is quite another.