Watchlords

Overview
5th April 2010 10:44 EST WikiLeaks has released a classified US military video depicting the indiscriminate slaying of over a dozen people in the Iraqi suburb of New Baghdad -- including two Reuters news staff.

Reuters has been trying to obtain the video through the Freedom of Information Act, without success since the time of the attack. The video, shot from an Apache helicopter gun-site, clearly shows the unprovoked slaying of a wounded Reuters employee and his rescuers. Two young children involved in the rescue were also seriously wounded.







http://www.collateralmurder.com/

Strange, I watched the entire video and didn't see a single incident of the Apache's firing on any unarmed Iraqi. I saw AK-47's and RPG's in their hands. The Van that came by to retrieve weapons and bodies can only be assumed to be hostile as well in that particular area at that specific time. I'll assume this was one of those extreme leftist articles that was published according to the title of the video on YouTube. :roll:

Watch Noob wrote:Strange, I watched the entire video and didn't see a single incident of the Apache's firing on any unarmed Iraqi. I saw AK-47's and RPG's in their hands. The Van that came by to retrieve weapons and bodies can only be assumed to be hostile as well in that particular area at that specific time. I'll assume this was one of those extreme leftist articles that was published according to the title of the video on YouTube. :roll:

leaked pentagon video.

I watched the entire video and didn't see any of those people shooting at the helicopter.

The first guy observed to have a weapon had a camera with a long lens. Looked to be a Nikon. That same guy is seen later sticking out from the corner of the building holding what is 100% clearly a long lens camera. It was not long enough to be an rpg. No way. That group of men was the chopters target group when they come around the building.

So we shoot them shooting us, but in this case, it looks to me, they were shooting Nikons. I own long lens ..Nikons and they could be mistaken for a weapon, happnes quite frequently I read. That was clearly not an rpg. iMHO Yes they had light rifles, it is a war. They were not holding them in any aggressive stance. They were just holding rifles, about four men. Helicopters flying packed overhead in a war zone, you might choose to arm yourself.

Isolated a clip from the video to show you all what my eye caught before the gunfire. The man on the radio is calling this an rpg. Bulshit. way too short. Too small around towards what is clearly a camera body. The man is looking at his camera settings and is getting ready to shoot the airborne patrols alright, but with a 200-400 nikkor lens or something similar. There is no way this ia an rpg. Too short, too thin I'd the center. The big ends you see are the camera and a lens hood, designed to shoot the camera in strong light.

Rewatching the footage, two men had big cameras. Walking on the street right when the camera first zooms. The voice is calling them ak47s, and later I do see rifles,, but not until the ship does a complete circle.

When first pointed out as weapons, there were only big cameras. The camera people were not with the gun people, nor were the gun people shooting. It looks like the camera man was redding his camera to shoot in my single blown up frame.

How sad.

Watch Noob wrote:Strange, I watched the entire video and didn't see a single incident of the Apache's firing on any unarmed Iraqi. I saw AK-47's and RPG's in their hands. The Van that came by to retrieve weapons and bodies can only be assumed to be hostile as well in that particular area at that specific time. I'll assume this was one of those extreme leftist articles that was published according to the title of the video on YouTube. :roll:

Here is a photograph showing a long lens and big camera like seen in my still above. Large image, so I will just post a link. http://www.guns2roses.com/blog_pics/DSC00025apo.jpg

I am not a leftist, I am a repub. I am also a 30 year photographer that owns that equipment as well as being a retired gun dealer and a lifetime NRA member.

That man did not have an rpg. There were no RPGs present in the video. What there were in the video was news people documenting a war. A war we have no business being in, regardless of this one incident. We messed up. We shot a news crew covering the war. The men may have only had out guns so they could be photographed holding the weapons.

As with most videos, our context may be slightly scewed but initially it did appear to me that 2 of the individuals had long guns which is a violation on the streets of Bagdad and automatically makes you a "hostile". All there know, pick up a weapon, expect to be engaged. I can also see where the individual looking around the corner bearing a long object could be mistaken for an RPG which they encounter frequently.

As for the van. It could have simply been rendering aid to the wounded. I noticed it went directly to the wounded man without a weapon. It did not go to the fatalities.

My problem with the video is the bar of proof required to approve deadly force seems to be set very low. As they were not being fired upon, some magnification or even the ground unit deployed to their location to evaluate might have been wise.

Having said that, hostiles in that area do not wear uniforms or signs identifying them as such. It could be a 14 year old child or an 80 year old farmer. I can imagine that the confusion and the feeling of urgentcy to act to prevent friendly casualties can be daunting. They also state in the video that they have already encountered some hostiles with RPG's earlier that day, so this is not an uncommon event which could lend itself to assumption. The "if it looks like a weapon, it probably is" mentality.


Although I don't think we ever had any bussiness being there then or now, I can empathize with the difficulty of decisions our service men and women are having to make.

IMO: I think this was poor judgement made without sufficient proof of hostility. I think this was the case when we entered this conflict as well. I do not think it is criminal. A fact of war is that things get broken and people get hurt. It's not always the right things or people. It's called the "fog of war". Commanders know this. That is why they are often hesitant about deploying this type of overwhelming firepower in civillian areas. it's like a bull in a china shop. Some shits gonna get broken.

War is a sad instrument used by the very established to maintain supremacy through the disposable forced actions of the young.

If war is justified, and it seldom is, it should be fast, complete and overtaking to the point Iraq should now be our fifty first state. To walk in like police and try to maintain third party status while we aid one tribe while helping to butcher another never works over the long term. Look at Korea, Nam, afganastan, these actions always fail.

While disturbing I believe that some of the individuals were carrying what appeared to be rifles. The disturbing part about this is that there were clearly more men without any weapons yet they took the whole entire group out along with the random van coming to pick up the bodies.

What I cannot summize is the background leading up to this - were they being monitored prior and engaging in suspect 'activities'. I can only imagine that this type of war leads to airing on the side of caution because there is a blending of terrorists and regular citizens over there. Gone are the days where each side wore distinct uniforms.

I also know in the heat of the moment you can become somewhat hyped up but the soliders in the chopper were pressing for kills and attacking the van.

G.a.r.y wrote:

If war is justified, and it seldom is, it should be fast, complete and overtaking to the point Iraq should now be our fifty first state. To walk in like police and try to maintain third party status while we aid one tribe while helping to butcher another never works over the long term. Look at Korea, Nam, afganastan, these actions always fail.

Well said.

I have been very much against this war from the beginning but since we have all of our stuff in the sand, we might as well go over and break some of Iran's shit and make it the 52nd state. We are going to have to deal with them sooner or later. Oil crisis over and I want cheap gas.

Of course I say this in jest as this would further devistate our economy in the short term not to mention the diplomatic repercussions.

Horrifying.
I do not condone the military action against these folks, but will give the shooters the benefit of the doubt for combat zone jitters. For now.
I do not condone the government covering up this incident. America is better than that.

I watched several times. I do not see any justification for the action that took place. It is stomach-turing.........which I know is war but it doesn't make it right. I don't know how I would be in a same/similar situation but from where I am now...........BIG MISTAKE!

Too easy to kill from above or in war in general. I could see from the vid they were not armed. Now before anyone says "how can you tell?", been there, done that.

the soldiers should have been brought up on charges and the issue brought into the light. I remember all too well My Lai. Yes in the heat of combat you have to make a judgement quickly. The problem is, the wrong call, and the results are permanent and normally fatal.


For those too young

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre

Reminds me of this in a way. Not making fun of the situation, it's just the first thing that popped into my head......

My Lai, IMO, is a slightly different situation. There was face to face contact at My Lai and many of the victims were women and children. Some were even raped. Lt. Calley got off easy if you ask me. Some say he was a skape goat. He was the CO on scene. Many more should have been prosecuted. The ole "I was just following orders" defense doesn't hold water here.

Just my perspective from where I sit. Having said that, I wasn't there. I did not feel the "atmosphere" of the event therefore cannot appreciate their mindset at the time. I think most of us would find it difficult to feel any other way about this event.

My Lai was a horrific tragedy and an embarassment in US history.

I understand what you mean Alain. killing from a helicopter seems much easier and more impersonal than looking into someones face.

* Great video Don. The intro to boot camp with R. Lee Ermy is one of my all time favorite movie scenes.

Regarless of our reasons or lack off, to be in this conflict, war is a dirty business .
General George S. Patton used to said....
“May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't.”

Two footmen were clearly carrying AK-47's. Slung low and to their right sides, yes. Not brandishing nor firing. However the rules of engagement are solid. Good video Koi. To Boscoe's comment of "combat jitters".... have you ever been in a firefight Dan?
This is what it is..... A group of men got smoked. Too bad for them.

Got to agree with AH, while I was never in the service how many groups like this killed our troops? While not for alot of peoples eyes this is war and it's not pretty! At times I've got a hard time supporting our government I would never question our soldiers in combat and the decisions they make! I'm sure none of us can really understand unless we've been through it and as the 4th of July nears I would like to thank all the strong men that have kept us free and thank the families of the ones who paid the ultimate price for our freedom!!

I do know I'm an ass...but shit, I would of done the exact same things as the soldiers did. We've had time to digest the video...stop frame it...discuss it.
This IS war. If it was up to me, we'd see Hiroshama all over again.
God Bless the USA and our men and women risking their lives so we can second guess them.

without a doubt in my mind the 3rd one shown to have a possible weapon did. It was some sort of rifle and he even used stood it up touching the ground at one point. People hanging with people who have intent on killing are others are no different. The US military did right in my book except I would have shot a rocket up their fucking asses.

GO USA!

boscoe wrote:Horrifying.
I do not condone the military action against these folks, but will give the shooters the benefit of the doubt for combat zone jitters. For now.
I do not condone the government covering up this incident. America is better than that.

It is not the government covering anything up but rather worried about our own citizens who will turn it into something it is not. Which is what is being done now! While the initial move into IRAQ was wrong (IMHO), we are there now and while it sucks, we do a job and our boys and girls do a GREAT job! In that job, they make choices every day that would make most people cry and hide in their bedroom calling out for momma. I am so proud of our armed forces and FWIW, this video makes me prouder as it shows we have citizens of this country who do what is needed to further our commitment to freedom.

If you look at about 2:24 into the vid you can plainly see a gun....If it was a camera lens then why hide behind a bldg? War is hell...it's you or them.....I just hope this crap is over soon.

ttt