Tudor Is the New Rolex

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Tudor Is the New Rolex

Post by conjurer » September 14th 2021, 10:20pm

This is what I think. Rolex has become almost absurdly expensive, and insanely difficult to source. Back in the day, a guy with a decent job could buy a stainless Rolex with about two or three week's pay. Now, it's more like three month's pay, assuming you don't have to go to an AD and suck his revolting dick to get a place on line to pay way too much for one.

Thoughts? Discuss.
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Re: Tudor Is the New Rolex

Post by TemerityB » September 17th 2021, 8:07pm

Saying it again: Insanely lucky to score a new Rolex with no markup and no hassle from a nice AD in July 2020 - just two months before all hell broke loose in the market.

That being noted, if the tables were turned and I were to spend that kind of scratch on a new watch ... now? I wouldn't even consider a new Rolex, as much as I admire them. What's been going on the past two years is borderline crazed. Of course, the insanity is being caused mainly by a manic, opportunist faction that wouldn't know a good watch from a sardine sandwich, but you get the drift. Wow, yeah, Rolex appreciates - but I think someone who'd pay triple list price for ANYTHING has a brain that sounds like two quarters in a kids' piggy bank. Plus, I feel the Rolex retail price increases starting last fall were entirely unwarranted.

So to respond to conj: I would head for Omega or Tudor or any number of fine watches, absolutely. Rolex is great, but there are a lot of great watches out there, particularly these days.
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Re: Tudor Is the New Rolex

Post by Hawk » September 18th 2021, 7:53am

Rolex is a nice enough watch but I can’t shake the feeling that the current pricing is the 21st century’s answer to 17th century tulip bulb pricing.

Bubbles tend to burst and I’ve been on the short end often enough in my life I’m pretty religious about not participating again.

Hell, I even get annoyed when a used GS goes for double its MSRP after three years. Shoulda got that damn peacock when it was new.
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Re: Tudor Is the New Rolex

Post by boscoe » September 18th 2021, 8:21am

Having collected Tudors before they became an in watch - or returned to the US market - I would not equate the brand to Rolex. Fans aren't as passionate. Watches don't have the history and, well, they ain't a Rolex.
Don't think they'll ever appreciate or stay in vogue like the Crown brand. Yes, my vintage Tudor Subs with the ROLEX crowns have appreciated handsomely in the last five years, but that is due to their ROLEX cases, not the pedestrian ETA movements. Don't think there is a real, or strong, market for used pieces. Back at turn of century, Hong Kong knock offs killed the collectability - you have to be very careful buying vintage.
I have maybe 10 Tudors, not the same quality as Rolex, which I agree are over-priced on the gray/used market.
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Re: Tudor Is the New Rolex

Post by smellody » September 18th 2021, 12:50pm

I think Conjurer's premise is correct that Tudor is the watch that is "available" to the masses and "affordable" in the sense that a working, middle-class Joe or Jane can purchase one for the equivalent of a couple of weeks' worth of wages.

Boscoe, the old stuff, like you suggest, with rolex crowns and cases. Is exclusive and will remain expensive and collectible.
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Re: Tudor Is the New Rolex

Post by jason_recliner » September 18th 2021, 4:50pm

kevco wrote:
September 17th 2021, 6:25am
smellody wrote:
September 16th 2021, 12:09pm
kevco wrote:
September 16th 2021, 11:35am
I am VERY tempted to secure a model 1926. Brand new, about $1300.00. Just can't quite jump yet......
Sweet! It is a handsome model!

Is that a fair price?
Price is good, about $100-200 cheaper than Joma depending on the model. Have you handled one? If not, you should before you pull the trigger.

A few hundred more will get you a Milus...
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Re: Tudor Is the New Rolex

Post by jason_recliner » September 18th 2021, 8:16pm

jason_recliner wrote:
September 18th 2021, 4:50pm
kevco wrote:
September 17th 2021, 6:25am
smellody wrote:
September 16th 2021, 12:09pm
kevco wrote:
September 16th 2021, 11:35am
I am VERY tempted to secure a model 1926. Brand new, about $1300.00. Just can't quite jump yet......
Sweet! It is a handsome model!

Is that a fair price?
Price is good, about $100-200 cheaper than Joma depending on the model. Have you handled one? If not, you should before you pull the trigger.

A few hundred more will get you a Milus...
And it's not tainted by Tudor=Skoda to Rolex=VW. None of the dumbing down that occurs when corporations have to "manage" their brands.
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Re: Tudor Is the New Rolex

Post by conjurer » September 18th 2021, 11:35pm

If one wants to buy, say, a Rolex President in 18k, then there are plenty of ADs out there perfectly happy to sell you one for, what is it, 25 or 30 grand? Alas, there are a whole lot of folks--including me--who couldn't be fucking bothered to buy a solid gold Rolex. The prices are fucking silly.

If you want a Rolex sports stainless, then either you buy used, at ruinous prices, or wait for two years, and buy new, at ruinous prices. Either way, you're paying way too fucking much.

However, if you want something very near to Rolex quality for the old Rollie prices, then Tudor is your path. Granted, they won't appreciate like the Rolex product, but they will give you something very near the quality at a third of the price, along with the availability that you simply won't get with Rolex.
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Re: Tudor Is the New Rolex

Post by 3Flushes » September 19th 2021, 4:06am

conjurer wrote:
September 18th 2021, 11:35pm
If one wants to buy, say, a Rolex President in 18k, then there are plenty of ADs out there perfectly happy to sell you one for, what is it, 25 or 30 grand? Alas, there are a whole lot of folks--including me--who couldn't be fucking bothered to buy a solid gold Rolex. The prices are fucking silly.

If you want a Rolex sports stainless, then either you buy used, at ruinous prices, or wait for two years, and buy new, at ruinous prices. Either way, you're paying way too fucking much.

However, if you want something very near to Rolex quality for the old Rollie prices, then Tudor is your path. Granted, they won't appreciate like the Rolex product, but they will give you something very near the quality at a third of the price, along with the availability that you simply won't get with Rolex.
Oystersteel Daytona's are going for 30 grand plus. Talk about your basic ruinous---

As I've said before- they can keep 'em.
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Re: Tudor Is the New Rolex

Post by jason_recliner » September 19th 2021, 4:12am

conjurer wrote:
September 18th 2021, 11:35pm
... something very near to Rolex quality...
I don't agree with this. They feel more like a Longines or Fortis. Very good, but not luxury. Modern Rolexes are definitely luxury in terms of finishing. That's why I suggested handling a 1926 before buying.
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Re: Tudor Is the New Rolex

Post by TemerityB » September 19th 2021, 10:32am

boscoe wrote:
September 18th 2021, 8:21am
Having collected Tudors before they became an in watch - or returned to the US market - I would not equate the brand to Rolex. Fans aren't as passionate. Watches don't have the history and, well, they ain't a Rolex.
Don't think they'll ever appreciate or stay in vogue like the Crown brand. Yes, my vintage Tudor Subs with the ROLEX crowns have appreciated handsomely in the last five years, but that is due to their ROLEX cases, not the pedestrian ETA movements. Don't think there is a real, or strong, market for used pieces. Back at turn of century, Hong Kong knock offs killed the collectability - you have to be very careful buying vintage.
I have maybe 10 Tudors, not the same quality as Rolex, which I agree are over-priced on the gray/used market.
I can't argue with a word of this.
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Re: Tudor Is the New Rolex

Post by 3Flushes » September 19th 2021, 4:14pm

TemerityB wrote:
September 19th 2021, 10:32am
boscoe wrote:
September 18th 2021, 8:21am
Having collected Tudors before they became an in watch - or returned to the US market - I would not equate the brand to Rolex. Fans aren't as passionate. Watches don't have the history and, well, they ain't a Rolex.
Don't think they'll ever appreciate or stay in vogue like the Crown brand. Yes, my vintage Tudor Subs with the ROLEX crowns have appreciated handsomely in the last five years, but that is due to their ROLEX cases, not the pedestrian ETA movements. Don't think there is a real, or strong, market for used pieces. Back at turn of century, Hong Kong knock offs killed the collectability - you have to be very careful buying vintage.
I have maybe 10 Tudors, not the same quality as Rolex, which I agree are over-priced on the gray/used market.
I can't argue with a word of this.
Agree that the vintage Tudors are not likely to ever achieve Rolex aftermarket status. The new Tudor could be a different story depending on how they manage supply and demand. If the current incarnation follows the longstanding Rolex formula of underproducing, the prices of new Tudor watches will rise with demand and the used market will soon follow.

I initially thought that Rolex, who hasn't produced enough watches to completely meet the demand for them for decades, would follow the same formula with Tudor, but I'm not so sure anymore.

With the expansion into independent manufacturing facilities replete with proprietary technology, most notably, cases and in-house movements, Rolex restructured Tudor into an independent sibling / veritable luxury brand to fulfill an appeal to younger, trend savvy customers utilizing more progressive, unique designs to bring them and middle class customers into the Rolex family at an affordable price, without having to expand manufacturing capacity or dilute the iconic Rolex designs and their price points in order to do so.

So why screw that up by not closely scaling production to demand? I have come to think they will keep Tudor available and affordable to the broader customer base they intended to bring into the fold for the foreseeable future. But who the hell knows? And it's certainly a good time to buy a Tudor if you want one
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Re: Tudor Is the New Rolex

Post by Thunder1 » September 19th 2021, 4:35pm

3Flushes wrote:
September 19th 2021, 4:14pm
TemerityB wrote:
September 19th 2021, 10:32am
boscoe wrote:
September 18th 2021, 8:21am
Having collected Tudors before they became an in watch - or returned to the US market - I would not equate the brand to Rolex. Fans aren't as passionate. Watches don't have the history and, well, they ain't a Rolex.
Don't think they'll ever appreciate or stay in vogue like the Crown brand. Yes, my vintage Tudor Subs with the ROLEX crowns have appreciated handsomely in the last five years, but that is due to their ROLEX cases, not the pedestrian ETA movements. Don't think there is a real, or strong, market for used pieces. Back at turn of century, Hong Kong knock offs killed the collectability - you have to be very careful buying vintage.
I have maybe 10 Tudors, not the same quality as Rolex, which I agree are over-priced on the gray/used market.
*1..
I can't argue with a word of this.
Agree that the vintage Tudors are not likely to ever achieve Rolex aftermarket status. The new Tudor could be a different story depending on how they manage supply and demand. If the current incarnation follows the longstanding Rolex formula of underproducing, the prices of new Tudor watches will rise with demand and the used market will soon follow.

I initially thought that Rolex, who hasn't produced enough watches to completely meet the demand for them for decades, would follow the same formula with Tudor, but I'm not so sure anymore.

With the expansion into independent manufacturing facilities replete with proprietary technology, most notably, cases and in-house movements, Rolex restructured Tudor into an independent sibling / veritable luxury brand to fulfill an appeal to younger, trend savvy customers utilizing more progressive, unique designs to bring them and middle class customers into the Rolex family at an affordable price, without having to expand manufacturing capacity or dilute the iconic Rolex designs and their price points in order to do so.

So why screw that up by not closely scaling production to demand? I have come to think they will keep Tudor available and affordable to the broader customer base they intended to bring into the fold for the foreseeable future. But who the hell knows? And it's certainly a good time to buy a Tudor if you want one
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Re: Tudor Is the New Rolex

Post by jason_recliner » September 19th 2021, 5:29pm

3Flushes wrote:
September 19th 2021, 4:14pm
TemerityB wrote:
September 19th 2021, 10:32am
boscoe wrote:
September 18th 2021, 8:21am
Having collected Tudors before they became an in watch - or returned to the US market - I would not equate the brand to Rolex. Fans aren't as passionate. Watches don't have the history and, well, they ain't a Rolex.
Don't think they'll ever appreciate or stay in vogue like the Crown brand. Yes, my vintage Tudor Subs with the ROLEX crowns have appreciated handsomely in the last five years, but that is due to their ROLEX cases, not the pedestrian ETA movements. Don't think there is a real, or strong, market for used pieces. Back at turn of century, Hong Kong knock offs killed the collectability - you have to be very careful buying vintage.
I have maybe 10 Tudors, not the same quality as Rolex, which I agree are over-priced on the gray/used market.
I can't argue with a word of this.
Agree that the vintage Tudors are not likely to ever achieve Rolex aftermarket status. The new Tudor could be a different story depending on how they manage supply and demand. If the current incarnation follows the longstanding Rolex formula of underproducing, the prices of new Tudor watches will rise with demand and the used market will soon follow.

I initially thought that Rolex, who hasn't produced enough watches to completely meet the demand for them for decades, would follow the same formula with Tudor, but I'm not so sure anymore.

With the expansion into independent manufacturing facilities replete with proprietary technology, most notably, cases and in-house movements, Rolex restructured Tudor into an independent sibling / veritable luxury brand to fulfill an appeal to younger, trend savvy customers utilizing more progressive, unique designs to bring them and middle class customers into the Rolex family at an affordable price, without having to expand manufacturing capacity or dilute the iconic Rolex designs and their price points in order to do so.

So why screw that up by not closely scaling production to demand? I have come to think they will keep Tudor available and affordable to the broader customer base they intended to bring into the fold for the foreseeable future. But who the hell knows? And it's certainly a good time to buy a Tudor if you want one
That Joma and every other grey market retailer has thousands of them around the US$1,500 mark suggests which way Tudor is going.
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Re: Tudor Is the New Rolex

Post by 3Flushes » September 20th 2021, 1:19am

jason_recliner wrote:
September 19th 2021, 5:29pm
3Flushes wrote:
September 19th 2021, 4:14pm
TemerityB wrote:
September 19th 2021, 10:32am
boscoe wrote:
September 18th 2021, 8:21am
Having collected Tudors before they became an in watch - or returned to the US market - I would not equate the brand to Rolex. Fans aren't as passionate. Watches don't have the history and, well, they ain't a Rolex.
Don't think they'll ever appreciate or stay in vogue like the Crown brand. Yes, my vintage Tudor Subs with the ROLEX crowns have appreciated handsomely in the last five years, but that is due to their ROLEX cases, not the pedestrian ETA movements. Don't think there is a real, or strong, market for used pieces. Back at turn of century, Hong Kong knock offs killed the collectability - you have to be very careful buying vintage.
I have maybe 10 Tudors, not the same quality as Rolex, which I agree are over-priced on the gray/used market.
I can't argue with a word of this.
Agree that the vintage Tudors are not likely to ever achieve Rolex aftermarket status. The new Tudor could be a different story depending on how they manage supply and demand. If the current incarnation follows the longstanding Rolex formula of underproducing, the prices of new Tudor watches will rise with demand and the used market will soon follow.

I initially thought that Rolex, who hasn't produced enough watches to completely meet the demand for them for decades, would follow the same formula with Tudor, but I'm not so sure anymore.

With the expansion into independent manufacturing facilities replete with proprietary technology, most notably, cases and in-house movements, Rolex restructured Tudor into an independent sibling / veritable luxury brand to fulfill an appeal to younger, trend savvy customers utilizing more progressive, unique designs to bring them and middle class customers into the Rolex family at an affordable price, without having to expand manufacturing capacity or dilute the iconic Rolex designs and their price points in order to do so.

So why screw that up by not closely scaling production to demand? I have come to think they will keep Tudor available and affordable to the broader customer base they intended to bring into the fold for the foreseeable future. But who the hell knows? And it's certainly a good time to buy a Tudor if you want one
That Joma and every other grey market retailer has thousands of them around the US$1,500 mark suggests which way Tudor is going.
Indeed. There are NOS Tudor watches aplenty to be sure at very good prices, but there are vintage pieces like the North Flag on a bracelet, certain Prince Date, and Ranger models that are fetching well north of 4 grand. The prices on new stock for Tudors with supplied movements are up to 28% off at JOMA, and while Black Bays and top of the line Tudors offer small, if any discounts, they are in good supply.

The easiest way to know what you're looking at is by the movement information. If the reference to the movement is 'Tudor Caiber' or TC followed by a familiar sounding ETA or Valjoux number, the 2824, or 7753, for example, the watch was manufactured before Tudor was restructured.

If the reference begins with MT (Manufacture Tudor) followed by four numbers, designating in-house cals., or with T (Tudor) followed by three numbers, designating supplied base movement cals. from Selita or ETA, the watch was manufactured after Tudor was restructured. One of the MT chronos, the 5813, is manufactured by Breitling exclusively for Tudor in a dedicated facility. Tudor, in kind, supplies the MT 56 exclusively to Breitling, which is made in the Tudor movement manufacture and is based on their MT 5612.

I've seen a couple of listings with vague movement information that alluded to being current models so be sure you're buying what you're looking for- you can always compare a listing to the Tudor website which has an excellent search function with references to current and vintage model and cal. numbers.

From the 3F Watch Library:

Tudor in-house Calibers: Complete list and Guide

https://millenarywatches.com/tudor-in-house-calibers/

Tudor Watch History: A Complete Guide

https://millenarywatches.com/tudor-watch-history/

Tudor Reference Numbers: An Extensive Guide

https://millenarywatches.com/tudor-reference-numbers/

Tudor Serial Numbers: A Complete Resource Guide ----Not much help after 2002

https://millenarywatches.com/tudor-serial-numbers/

For Vintage Tudor Collectors------
How to Spot a Fake Tudor Watch: The Ultimate Guide

https://millenarywatches.com/how-to-spo ... #more-1009
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Re: Tudor Is the New Rolex

Post by kevco » September 20th 2021, 7:10am

jason_recliner wrote:
September 18th 2021, 4:50pm
kevco wrote:
September 17th 2021, 6:25am
smellody wrote:
September 16th 2021, 12:09pm
kevco wrote:
September 16th 2021, 11:35am
I am VERY tempted to secure a model 1926. Brand new, about $1300.00. Just can't quite jump yet......
Sweet! It is a handsome model!

Is that a fair price?
Price is good, about $100-200 cheaper than Joma depending on the model. Have you handled one? If not, you should before you pull the trigger.

A few hundred more will get you a Milus...
This has been a most interesting discussion. I have held off buying anything for now. Had to get new skins for my 2006 Chevy HHR. (213,000 miles on the crate)
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