The mojito gets new shoes

iwasbanned
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Re: The mojito gets new shoes

Post by iwasbanned » October 12th 2020, 7:34pm

bedlam wrote:
October 12th 2020, 7:23pm
iwasbanned wrote:
October 12th 2020, 7:49am
bedlam wrote:
October 11th 2020, 9:55pm
Where are the shoes??
Carl, the term "new shoes" is slang. In watch forum use, it refers to getting a new strap/bracelet for your watch. The term "new shoes" is also sometimes used in the automotive community to mean new tires/wheels for your vehicle. So for this particular post, getting "new shoes" refers to me swapping out the stock calf strap that came with the Seiko Mojito with a Camille Fournet (CF) I had previously purchased. The CF in this particular example would be the "new shoes". Just in case there is also confusion, there is no actual Mojito here. Mojito is the nickname given to the Seiko SRPE45J1 which is the model number of the watch pictured here. I suspect Seiko called it the "Mojito" because of the green in the dial. This particular series also has other models that use mixed alcoholic beverages as nicknames. You can refer to my post on the Seiko reference SRPE49J1 which is referred to as the "frozen margarita".

Please let me know if I can clear up any other confusing use of terminology.
Thanks so much Juan. I'd be lost without you :mrgreen:
You're welcome, I'm here to help.
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Re: The mojito gets new shoes

Post by 3Flushes » October 12th 2020, 9:30pm

iwasbanned wrote:
October 12th 2020, 5:29pm
I don't believe there is any real reason to question the quality of the CF strap. I did a little more digging and thanks to Cod's links above, I'm even more confident that the leather CFs uses are top notch. If you watch the video you can see they are working with the actual skin and identifying imperfections in it. If this was top grain leather, my understanding is that the top few mm are sanded off meaning you would have to emboss the alligator pattern on and that doesn't appear to be the case. CF is also a founding member of the Association Assurance Qualité des Bracelets de Montre, now it could all be smoke and mirrors but I doubt it. Not to mention they make straps for several of the top swiss brands, there really isn't much to doubt.

I did go ahead and shoot out an email to CF to directly ask if they use Full Grain leather versus top grain and in addition I'll go to my microscope and check and see if I can see pores on this alligator skin, but because they use baby alligators :(, the pores are very fine. Damn you CF, baby alligators deserve to live!
I never said that a Top Grain strap couldn't be a quality product as long as you pay for what you get and care for it accordingly with extra care to prevent scuffs and scratches through to the backing, or by not using the same oils or conditioners you might use on a full grain product as this could cause the leather to separate from the backing materials, for example. Hell, it could be that with options- linings, finishes, hardware, and whatnot they may have to use a thinner présentation side, not unlike good thin glove leather.

If I were a strap (holster, bag, saddle and sew forth) maker using the finest vegetable tanned full grain hides available, I'd sure as hell want everybody to know it. But, what's it say on the back of the CF strap- "hand sewn". IDK- perhaps it's just the zany French. I have a graphic somewhere in the library with how everything is cut or skeeved- I'll try to find it and pop it up.

I thought Cod's links were inconclusive- cool vid though which said they get alligator hides from LA- the best. The link with the grades was confusing- lots of genuine this and genuine that but no genuine top grain cowhide, or genuine full grain alligator etc., but it appeared to be from a 3rd party seller / distributor.

To note, goods marked genuine- leather, lizard, cowhide, crock-a-gator, or whatnot, without any modifiers, is the lowest grade of hides or skins available. Again, the CF materials may be indicated by the numbers at the pins which may be familiar to consumers and whonot within their European markets. Or stock numbers. Just put it on the damn goods in plain French. The best stuff gets marked- 14K, .750, .999, trademarks. Absent the same warrants scrutiny.

EDIT: While a leather strap certainly isn't gold, if I bought a watch represented as contained within an 18K gold case and it arrived with no 18K or .750 marking, I'd have to check.
Obviously, a strap may have other redeeming qualities that make it a keeper for the price, grade notwithstanding, but the buyer has to know the quality or grade of the materials in order to make that judgement.
In this thing of ours, particularly here at WL, we are highly scrupulous regarding the representations made as to materials, movements, origin, and whatnot, and counsel, buy what you like as long as you know what it is- why would straps, bands, and bracelets be any different, they are certainly a frequent topic around here.

Go straight to the source, that's the ticket. I look fwd to their response.

P.S. What kind'a microscope you have? Abbe, oil? Electron?
Last edited by 3Flushes on October 13th 2020, 9:23am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The mojito gets new shoes

Post by iwasbanned » October 13th 2020, 12:22pm

3Flushes wrote:
October 12th 2020, 9:30pm

If I were a strap (holster, bag, saddle and sew forth) maker using the finest vegetable tanned full grain hides available, I'd sure as hell want everybody to know it. But, what's it say on the back of the CF strap- "hand sewn". IDK- perhaps it's just the zany French.....

....

The best stuff gets marked- 14K, .750, .999, trademarks. Absent the same warrants scrutiny.

EDIT: While a leather strap certainly isn't gold, if I bought a watch represented as contained within an 18K gold case and it arrived with no 18K or .750 marking, I'd have to check.
Obviously, a strap may have other redeeming qualities that make it a keeper for the price, grade notwithstanding, but the buyer has to know the quality or grade of the materials in order to make that judgement.
In this thing of ours, particularly here at WL, we are highly scrupulous regarding the representations made as to materials, movements, origin, and whatnot, and counsel, buy what you like as long as you know what it is- why would straps, bands, and bracelets be any different, they are certainly a frequent topic around here.

....

P.S. What kind'a microscope you have? Abbe, oil? Electron?
It's an electron microscope.

Have you seen any high end strap manufacturers mark their straps as "Full-grain" "Top-grain" or anything else? I've seen the what I've now learned is the cheap stuff "Genuine Leather", but cant' recall any markings of any kind on high end straps to indicate quality of the leather.

While I understand your point about markings, it also seems short sighted to just believe that something is quality just because it's marked as being quality. As a matter of fact, I would argue that marking are often used to mislead or oversell quality that isn't there i.e. swiss mov't, "built in the USA", and "genuine leather" and so forth. It also kind of reminds me of Tommy Boy.

"I’ll tell you what, you can get a good look at a t-bone by sticking your head up a bull’s ass, but I’d rather take the butcher’s word for it."

In this case, for me at least, I know Camille Fournet, they have been around a long time and make straps for some high end watch manufacturers, if their product is suspect I'm certain it would have already come out, so for now, they get the benefit of the doubt from me. Could be I'm just one of those sucker's born every minute though.

I'll update the thread when I get a reply from them.
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Re: The mojito gets new shoes

Post by iwasbanned » October 14th 2020, 9:36am

Initial response from CF:
Thank you for your email and your feedback on our products.I'm not sure to understand exactly what you mean by "grain". maybe you can explain? We use only real exotic leather (no stamped leather) and only top range quality.
I sent her a follow up explaining "Full v. Top v. Gen", it being France, they could have different standards. Having said that, I take her statement "no stamped leather" to indicate they use Full Grain. Top grain leather, specifically for alligator would require stamping if they sand off the top layer.
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Re: The mojito gets new shoes

Post by 3Flushes » October 14th 2020, 12:50pm

iwasbanned wrote:
October 14th 2020, 9:36am
Initial response from CF:
Thank you for your email and your feedback on our products.I'm not sure to understand exactly what you mean by "grain". maybe you can explain? We use only real exotic leather (no stamped leather) and only top range quality.
I sent her a follow up explaining "Full v. Top v. Gen", it being France, they could have different standards. Having said that, I take her statement "no stamped leather" to indicate they use Full Grain. Top grain leather, specifically for alligator would require stamping if they sand off the top layer.
yeah- I was alluding to the zany French somewhere above- the numbers at the pin barrels look to be tanner's references but they were not listed with the American numbers.

I agree that 'no stamped leather' would tend to indicate they don't use embossed top grain products while they may use a somewhat thinner slice of a hide to control for overall thickness. Good quality driving or dress gloves makers do the same thing.

This could account for the removal of flaws in the vid, as, at least in the US, any pattern of flaws in the hide prevents it from being graded for full grain use. I also looked into their dyeing and finishing processes and they are exactly what you want to see.

It'll be a funny commentary on the company, or perhaps the French in general, that it's more important to certify the manufacturing process than the materials on the product.
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Re: The mojito gets new shoes

Post by iwasbanned » October 14th 2020, 1:16pm

3Flushes wrote:
October 14th 2020, 12:50pm

... the numbers at the pin barrels look to be tanner's references but they were not listed with the American numbers.

I agree that 'no stamped leather' would tend to indicate they don't use embossed top grain products while they may use a somewhat thinner slice of a hide to control for overall thickness. Good quality driving or dress gloves makers do the same thing.

.....
As the numbers are you referring to the 20/18 and 130? I think those are the widths and length of the strap. 20mm at the lugs, 18mm at the buckle and 130 mmm long. Are those the numbers you were referring to? This whole time I kept looking for numbers near the lugs that weren't there :).

From what I read, Full Grain leather at least for bovine is at least 10mm thick. I'm not sure how thick alligator skin is but since these straps come in varying thickness and as you can see in the video, they do thin out the skin. I'm not sure how that affects grading as they are keeping the top most level of the skin.
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Re: The mojito gets new shoes

Post by codguy » October 14th 2020, 1:52pm

tictok- are wee stil talking about A wopping $300 watch strap here????????

Sum peeple shuld symply by a hadlie roma strap and git on with life.......we ar talking about a phucking $300 wartch strap hear!

Mi fucking god, it is lyke wee are talking about sum goddam hairloom shit hear.
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Re: The mojito gets new shoes

Post by conjurer » October 14th 2020, 2:15pm

codguy wrote:
October 14th 2020, 1:52pm
tictok- are wee stil talking about A wopping $300 watch strap here????????

Sum peeple shuld symply by a hadlie roma strap and git on with life.......we ar talking about a phucking $300 wartch strap hear!

Mi fucking god, it is lyke wee are talking about sum goddam hairloom shit hear.
Wate! hold The fukking Fone over hear!! Juan of ewe guys Spant $3,00 dollers on A wartche Strapp?? that's Is ali Moore then i Spent on my Last 3 invicters!!
I find tv watches to be like the guys who raise their truck you need a fricken ladder to get in. It’s a attempt to look cool... that’s all.

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Re: The mojito gets new shoes

Post by 3Flushes » October 14th 2020, 3:05pm

codguy wrote:
October 14th 2020, 1:52pm
tictok- are wee stil talking about A wopping $300 watch strap here????????

Sum peeple shuld symply by a hadlie roma strap and git on with life.......we ar talking about a phucking $300 wartch strap hear!

Mi fucking god, it is lyke wee are talking about sum goddam hairloom shit hear.
Hadley Roma? Don't even get me started.

That said, if you know what the fuck you're doing, you can still get a pretty good Hirsch.
Last edited by 3Flushes on October 14th 2020, 11:57pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The mojito gets new shoes

Post by 3Flushes » October 14th 2020, 3:40pm

conjurer wrote:
October 14th 2020, 2:15pm
codguy wrote:
October 14th 2020, 1:52pm
tictok- are wee stil talking about A wopping $300 watch strap here????????

Sum peeple shuld symply by a hadlie roma strap and git on with life.......we ar talking about a phucking $300 wartch strap hear!

Mi fucking god, it is lyke wee are talking about sum goddam hairloom shit hear.
Wate! hold The fukking Fone over hear!! Juan of ewe guys Spant $3,00 dollers on A wartche Strapp?? that's Is ali Moore then i Spent on my Last 3 invicters!!
the Juan was juan and 3.0' know whey hoezay.--- he got the whytewals bye gumminy------, babie kalfskyn lyned {the onlee wonn softur is featal' greyne and yew halvf tew bea a veteranian doktur tew get thowse hydes.] And dluxe hardware------- a' heavydooty solid pin bucle' wyth solid bedrock hardoned pin' or' b' dluxe deploybalent claps------- kloser tew 4.0 - 4.5 eye,d wrecken, deliverd' fast' ,Course as partov the whytewals pakege.
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