Watchlords

Swiss Legend Endeavour

http://watchlords.forumotion.net/all-things-media-related-f10/swiss-legend-endeavor-t4885.htm#28451

Even the Royal (patented) Lupah and all others named as such, are derivatives of the original Corum design.

But isn't imitation the greatest form of flattery? The fact that Invicta, Croton and others replicate and create similar designs of other, high-end watch manufacturers is neither criminal nor is it unique in the wristwatch making world, or the world in general. Is the Corum bubble watch cool and would I like to own one? Most definitely. Can I, or most folks for that matter, afford it? I know I can't. Would I buy a Chinese-made knock off; even if it had a genuine Swiss movement (which some counterfeit watches have)? Absolutely not. Consequently, I chose to pay "homage" to the greats of watch design by purchasing an homage watch. While this string seems to primarily poke at Invicta, the same can be stated of Seiko or Bulova or any other maker who puts out an oyster case, similar to the Rolex. While it may disturb those who can afford to buy the "Real McCoy," homage products are just good business sense. Not every watch manufacturer is willing to go out on a limb at the low or medium-end market level and be totally unique, such as Android. To the extent that various Invicta designs replicate premier bands, the original provides a ready market. Also, it's not as if they are exact replicas, either. Finally, if one were to research the men's wristwatches of the 1940 through the 1950's, especially those of the tank design, can one really tell the difference between a Gruen, Bulova or a Hamilton watch? And they were the stars of there day.

bocaslim wrote:But isn't imitation the greatest form of flattery? The fact that Invicta, Croton and others replicate and create similar designs of other, high-end watch manufacturers is neither criminal nor is it unique in the wristwatch making world, or the world in general. Is the Corum bubble watch cool and would I like to own one? Most definitely. Can I, or most folks for that matter, afford it? I know I can't. Would I buy a Chinese-made knock off; even if it had a genuine Swiss movement (which some counterfeit watches have)? Absolutely not. Consequently, I chose to pay "homage" to the greats of watch design by purchasing an homage watch. While this string seems to primarily poke at Invicta, the same can be stated of Seiko or Bulova or any other maker who puts out an oyster case, similar to the Rolex. While it may disturb those who can afford to buy the "Real McCoy," homage products are just good business sense. Not every watch manufacturer is willing to go out on a limb at the low or medium-end market level and be totally unique, such as Android. To the extent that various Invicta designs replicate premier bands, the original provides a ready market. Also, it's not as if they are exact replicas, either. Finally, if one were to research the men's wristwatches of the 1940 through the 1950's, especially those of the tank design, can one really tell the difference between a Gruen, Bulova or a Hamilton watch? And they were the stars of there day.

Not to me. Ask Bremont how they feel about a blantant rip off of their design which sells for $3k. Invicta makes a cheap chinese version and was selling it for $47.00 all the while big mouth Jimbo is claiming Bremont is an over-priced mid range watch. He should look at his wrist and that Perrelet for over-priced or any Invicta over $250 for that matter.

It is theft of intellectual property, plain and simple.

koimaster wrote:

bocaslim wrote:But isn't imitation the greatest form of flattery? The fact that Invicta, Croton and others replicate and create similar designs of other, high-end watch manufacturers is neither criminal nor is it unique in the wristwatch making world, or the world in general. Is the Corum bubble watch cool and would I like to own one? Most definitely. Can I, or most folks for that matter, afford it? I know I can't. Would I buy a Chinese-made knock off; even if it had a genuine Swiss movement (which some counterfeit watches have)? Absolutely not. Consequently, I chose to pay "homage" to the greats of watch design by purchasing an homage watch. While this string seems to primarily poke at Invicta, the same can be stated of Seiko or Bulova or any other maker who puts out an oyster case, similar to the Rolex. While it may disturb those who can afford to buy the "Real McCoy," homage products are just good business sense. Not every watch manufacturer is willing to go out on a limb at the low or medium-end market level and be totally unique, such as Android. To the extent that various Invicta designs replicate premier bands, the original provides a ready market. Also, it's not as if they are exact replicas, either. Finally, if one were to research the men's wristwatches of the 1940 through the 1950's, especially those of the tank design, can one really tell the difference between a Gruen, Bulova or a Hamilton watch? And they were the stars of there day.

Not to me. Ask Bremont how they feel about a blantant rip off of their design which sells for $3k. Invicta makes a cheap chinese version and was selling it for $47.00 all the while big mouth Jimbo is claiming Bremont is an over-priced mid range watch. He should look at his wrist and that Perrelet for over-priced or any Invicta over $250 for that matter.

After checking out many a posting on this blog, I really get the fact that SNBC and its hosts are not all that appreciated. Be that as it may, as wristwatches go, when compared to retail pricing of other brands' stainless steel pieces, such as Rolex, Cartier, Panerai or even Omega, $3000.00 is within mid-range pricing. Moreover, those persons who are aware of Bremont watches will not be impressed by an Invicta; no matter how much it looks like the original design. I, myself, much prefer originals and really dig the products sold at websites such as Watchimo. Yet, I stand by my remarks concerning homage-ing. While it may rub some the wrong way, it's not illegal, nor is it otherwise actionable as any sort of patent or copyright infringement. It's business, plain and simple.

Do you distinguish between an homage and a blatant rip-off or replica.

iwasbanned wrote:Do you distinguish between an homage and a blatant rip-off or replica.

A blatant rip-off or replica would be a Canal Street Special... Any watch which represents itself to be that which it is not, or, in other words, a counterfeit. Every photograph posted, above, of an original design set beside a similar version by Invicta or Croton exhibits differences, albeit subtle ones. The proliferation of both homage watch making and counterfeiting is greater today than any time in the past, because of the nature of the industry, as a whole. Under the Swiss watchmaking laws, approximately 51% of the watch in its entirety must contain Swiss made parts and be assembled in Switzerland. While I imagine that the high end Swiss watches all fabricate their parts in Switzerland, less expensive lines don't and this would especially be true of the watch cases. Imagine the expense entailed in creating the tools and dyes needed for a watch case, as well as the machinery needed to cut stainless steel to the proper specifications. I submit that many of the cases manufactured, even the original Swiss designs, are made in east Asia and are readily available to both the homage maker and the counterfeiter. The case is one of many parts needed to make up the whole watch and even mid-range Swiss manufacturers have price point issues... Especially since many, such as the Swatch Group, have profits eaten up by very expensive advertising budgets. Those full page, colored glossies one sees in monthly fashion and men's magazines cost a pretty penny and such costs are most definitely reflected in the price of their products. Maybe I'm different; I don't get all that confused by homage watches, since they are different than the original design. But should the Miami Dolphins sue any other NFL team who utilized their version of the "Wildcat" offense, after the Dolphins first ran it two years ago? Should the Arkansas Razorbacks sue Miami for stealing its play? Should Tiffany's enjoin any other jeweler who sells a round diamond in a plain gold setting? To me, uniqueness is preferable over objects less unique or replicated (as opposed to counterfeited). But when one comes across similar or homage designs, unless they are one's own, it's no reason to have a cow over it.

I am certain Plasticase may feel a bit differently and I know for a fact that Nick English of Bremont does.

I will just chime in here with my 3 pennies. I do hate the word “Homage” if you look up the translation and derivation of the word it is very misused when it come to timepieces. To me this whole issue is one of a continuous spectrum not black or white. Counterfeit means just that something that is a replica down to the logo that is sold as an original, a real crime, especially and even beyond copyright laws, is when it is sold to the person shelling out big bucks thinking it is the genuine article.

Something that looks very similar, is just that.

With that said, I do have a few pieces of one of the brands stated above which are of decent quality given the price. As a collector who possesses some of the real things, why did I buy such pieces? Because there are times when I want to have a particular look but chose not to sport anything costing the price of a car on my wrist. The watch as I said, is of decent quality, looks the same, and by the way, for the 16 hour period I am wearing it keeps accurate time.

Excellent!

As for the discussion, I'm kind of in the middle.

I have two Marina Militares (Panerai homages if you will), one with a sterile dial. Are they counterfeits? No IMO because they don't say Panerai, etc. on the dial. Is my Invicta 8926? No. Will I ever own a real Panny? No. A Sub? Maybe. Am I offended when I wear my Daytona and see an Invicta Speedway? No.

Having said that, I'd never buy nor wear any watch that was a true counterfeit, which to me means it has the name on the dial of what it is a copy of as well as the copied design. That's where I draw the line I suppose.

BTW... I have not worn any of my homages in many months either.

koimaster wrote:

Not to me. Ask Bremont how they feel about a blantant rip off of their design which sells for $3k. Invicta makes a cheap chinese version and was selling it for $47.00 all the while big mouth Jimbo is claiming Bremont is an over-priced mid range watch. He should look at his wrist and that Perrelet for over-priced or any Invicta over $250 for that matter.

I've looked at those watches closely and everything except the movement, strap, and the name appear to be identical.

Which makes me wonder if Invicta didn't go and buy the case, dial, hands, etc.. from the same place as Bremont - most likely China.

If that is indeed the case then the Bremont is grossly overpriced. What Invicta has done is demonstrate that there really is no reason to pay $3K for that watch.

There is nothing very original about the Bremont in first place. It looks like just another of the many variations of the Pro-Diver.

D

When you look at materials value, I don't know of many watches that are actually worth their weight. Not even Invictas. When I buy, I don't buy based on the cost of materials and rate of manual labor. There are man intangibles I consider when purchasing a watch, and I suspect a lot of people do to. History, reputation, resale value, engineering, innovation among others are what I consider in whether a price is fair or not. So is the Bremont overpriced, I think that's subjective.

No two watches are created equal. Besides I suspect that the qualities of the materials and their finishes are superior in the Bremont. Not to mention the fact that if I buy a Bremont, it'll probably work out of the box and if it does break, I won't have to wait 4 months+ to get it fixed and if a screw falls out I won't have to wait 9+ months to get a new one and if I want it worked on in 5 years, chances are they won't send it back to me with a note saying discontinued to bad so sad. Also I can be confident that the movement was executed correctly not like the DD which was missing a washer that any company using this movement should have known about. Oh, and the hands probably won't fall off or be misaligned. And the lume is probably better.

As far as the Bremont being an homage, yeah pretty much, but to the pro-diver. I don't know. Isn't the Rolex Submariner the one that started it all?

I have no doubt that the Bremont was subjected to much stricter quality control standards than the Invicta.

My observation is that the case dial and hands were probably purchased from the same Chinese supplier.

And if that is the case I think $3K is overpriced - no matter how rigorous the QC. It also means that Invicta really didn't copy the Bremont because the watch parts are basically for sale to anyone who wants them.

A perfect example is the new Deep Blue 2K - it uses the same case and bracelet as the Debaufre Triton. The case and bracelet are available from a Chinese manufacturer.

Does that mean the Deep Blue is clone of the Debaufre, or vice versa? Not in my book. Both companies just buy a bunch of watch parts and assemble them and put their name on the watch that results.

All these watches look the same because they are all buying the parts from the same place.

Yes, the Submariner is the one everyone is copying. I mentioned the Pro Diver because of all the different variations, rubber straps, and wild colors they use.

D

I don't know D. You give them too much leeway. First, its more than just QC, I suspect that the quality of the craftsmanship i.e tolerances, finishes are much better on the Bremont. Their dials, cases, and hands are much more polished... again I only suspect because I have never seen either watch in person. Maybe though, you lump this all under QC and we agree on this point. I think of QC as making sure the watch actually works rather than having tighter specs.

As far as deep blue and debaufre, hell yeah one is clone of the other. That is unless of course neither one is the original designer. If I design something and outsource it to China, and because China is notorious for IP theft, they go and sell my design to someone else, hell yeah their product is clone, how can it not be?

Do you really believe that the fact the Invicta watch looks so much like the Bremont was just a parts procurement issue, or do you think Invicta was fully aware of the bremont design and decided to basically clone it?

Yes, I was lumping all the finishing, polishing, and inspecting to make sure everything is perfect under QC.

I see your point about one company actually designing something and then having it produced in China - and in that case yes that is a rip-off. But what if some Chinese company just designs and produces buttloads of cases and bracelets and sells to whoever wants them?

I wonder if either Deep Blue or Debaufre designed the case bracelet for the 2K and Triton?

I don't know for sure, but it could be a procurement issue. Or Invicta could have bought a Bremont and took it to a manufacturer in China and said make me this watch. Or if Bremont really did design the case, dial, and hands the manufacturer could have produced gazillions of them and offered them to Invicta for sale.

I just have a sneeking suspicion that all these "watchmakers" (with the exception of a few) are really just people who buy parts and contract with factories. In this case the real watchmakers are Chinese watch manufacturers.

D

I think its more likely that Invicta took a Bremont watch to China and said, make me this watch. I only say this because this is likely what happened in the Plasticase case.

I can see the Chinese designing cases, but as far as the style elements, colors, dial layout and such, in the case of Bremont at least, I just don't think it was done by the Chinese.

I am beginning to hate SL:

Wow, that watch is pretty sweet. The SL really looks cheap next to it, though its definitely a ripoff.

Im sorry FUGLY watches dont count. That is the only ugly Clerc i have ever seen. Lior sells both of these watches, and the SL is his own brand...

Apparently it started some time ago at Swiss Legend.

Take a Nautilus case and bracelet, stool on the dial, then add AP RO bolts to the bezel, and viola:

You have the perfect Patek/Audemar/Swiss Legend Frankenwatch. I'm sure Gerald Genta is quietly weeping somewhere.

F U, Stuhrling