Favre-Leuba (reactivated)- Thoughts?

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Favre-Leuba (reactivated)- Thoughts?

Postby MKTheVintageBloke » February 13th 2017, 7:20am

A great return, or something shady? Well, that's a question that I'm asking myself. I've heard rumours of a potential reactivation of the brand, but only today I've seen an advert for their watches on YouTube, uploaded by the ABTW channel.

Of course, it's "brand necromancy", since FL was dead and buried since the quartz crisis.

http://favre-leuba.com

Normally, I'd just focus on the watches, which are nice, especially their new chronographs... They're as cool as it gets, at least the Sky Chief is.
But a few things raise my suspicions.

Currently, they only list retailers based in Japan, India and UAE. India was of course their main market back in the day, but...
There is completely no technical data for the movements. What are they using? Sellita? Soprod? The chronos- are they Valjoux, or modular? Nothing. Not even one bloody thing like the jewel count or power reserve is shown.

I find it peculiar, that a brand known mostly to the WIS is being marketed in a way, that maybe - just, maybe - could appeal to the general public, if it wouldn't have been stuck in the watch industry's "Davy Jones' Locker" for the last three decades. After all, if one wants to do some mojo with resurrecting a dead watch company, the primary target group should be the WIS, no? After all, good reputation is a must in the business (unless you're Eyal Lalo). And it looks almost as if they wanted to hide something from the people who can interpret the tech specs (which to a random John Doe are as clear as the Voynich Manuscript).

So, how would you interpret it? A proper return of a great brand, or a shady business trying to feed off of the original brand's reputation? The brand appears to be owned by the Tata group, the Indian conglomerate that owns Jaguar and Land Rover. Which certainly is good for the brand in terms of financing, but judging by the website, their transparency leaves a lot to be desired...
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Re: Favre-Leuba (reactivated)- Thoughts?

Postby TemerityB » February 13th 2017, 7:48am

MKTheVintageBloke wrote:There is completely no technical data for the movements. What are they using? Sellita? Soprod? The chronos- are they Valjoux, or modular? Nothing. Not even one bloody thing like the jewel count or power reserve is shown.



Well, there you go. Pretty soon, they'll sell these on home shopping networks on cruises, with bold claims like "this run with the movement of your arm," which will no doubt impress the old age pensioners holding hubcap-sized plates full of potato salad and "that kind of tuna salad we can't get at home."

Red flags everywhere.
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Re: Favre-Leuba (reactivated)- Thoughts?

Postby Hawk » February 13th 2017, 8:12am

Found this at WUS:

Hi All,
Re: How come all FAVRE LEUBA watches seem to be in India?

The reasons are,


During British times there were very few watch brands available in India. Favre Leuba was one of them and the most popular one. The wrist watch segment was available in India till late 70s. As well, it is the most popular watch in India even today. In fact the Favre Leuba manufacturing company at Switzerland has been taken over by an Indian watch manufacturer TATA, in 2011.

From 1940 till late 80s the Favre Leuba had a Russian counterpart. Those watches were only available in India. Those watches said to be the duplicate Favre Leuba, as they were Russian made. Only the balance/movement used to be Swiss Made. The Russian company was nothing but the out sourcing of the Swiss company. Though, the people in India had the impact of Swiss product, they appreciated the Russian product as well.

After 1975, the Swiss company and the Russian company started assembling the watches instead of manufacturing them entirely. Most of the parts used to be Asian made, at this time. That stared the downfall of Favre Leuba in India.

The Sea King and Sea Chef are the two models which are still available in India. I have got 10 Favre Leubas. The eldest one is 1930 made.
For your information, except Favre Leuba there were three other brand available in India during British era.

Favre Leuba
Camy
Henri Sandoz & Fil
West End (Only pocket watches)

http://forums.watchuseek.com/f71/how-co ... 63881.html


One other is suggesting FL not only took it in the teeth from the quartz crisis but by HMT in the 1960s.

It would appear, however, that they kept the dues current:
http://www.fhs.swiss/eng/watch_brands.html?letter=F
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Re: Favre-Leuba (reactivated)- Thoughts?

Postby ocean » February 13th 2017, 8:19am

Wish they use the old 253 but very doubtful.
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Re: Favre-Leuba (reactivated)- Thoughts?

Postby koimaster » February 13th 2017, 10:11am

Favre Leuba history b.pdf


Favre-Leuba watch history.pdf


ASchild movements.pdf


Favre-Leuba Bathy Chrono.pdf


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Favre-Leuba



Favre-Leuba


From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




Founded
1737

Headquarters
Zug, Switzerland


Website
favre-leuba.com

Favre-Leuba is a Swiss manufacturer of wristwatches, which is headquartered in Zug. It was a pioneer in watch design, manufacturing and distribution, thus contributing immensely to the watchmaking industry in Switzerland. The foundation of the brand was laid in 1737 when Abraham Favre was registered as a watchmaker.

History of Favre Leuba

13th of March 1737, was a date that put Le Locle on the map of the Horology world unlike it ever was before. It is on this date that the first archival document states that Abraham Favre was a watchmaker with his own workshop. It was his son, also by the name of Abraham Favre, who perfected the art and took his Father’s passion into a business that is today globally known. In 1792 Abraham Favre, along with his two sons, Frederic & Henry-Louis, founded the company A.Favre & Fils. From the very beginning Abraham Favre concentrated on improving the technology of his watches, their properties at different temperatures as well as the materials used in watch making, thus making more reliable and accurate movements. This made possible many watches thus being well ahead of its time

Henry-Augustus, Frederic Favre’s son and Abraham Favre’s grandson, expanded this family business into distant markets. This fourth generation Favre member collaborated with Auguste Leuba, a member of a family of watchmakers & merchants, to create the brand name Favre-Leuba in 1815. They traveled together across various countries, from Germany to Russia, from Cuba to the United States, from Brazil to Chile and many more. The 19 year old Henry-Augustus took this family run business to the world market and made known Favre-Leuba as we know of it today.

Fritz Favre, who married Adele-Fanny Leuba in 1855, was a worthy successor as he took the business into many more countries across Europe, Americas & Asia. He participated in various national & international exhibitions, such as the Universal Exhibition in London in 1851, the New York Fair in 1853, and also won many accolades for the brand. It was his children, part of the sixth generation of Favre’s, who worked towards strengthening the brand across various markets, especially when Europe was facing challenging times. India became a very important market for Favre-Leuba and this was the first Swiss company from the industry to have established itself in the country.

Henry A Favre, born in 1908, part of the seventh generation, continued to grow & develop the business by setting up offices & employing representatives across South America, Africa, Middle-East, Far-East & European markets. He, along with his father & other predecessors from the sixth generation, was responsible for the launch of many iconic pieces as we know of today.

Around the year 1925, Favre-Leuba produced a single button chronograph and created the Reverso mechanism in 1940. It is under this team that the company made many distinguishing innovations, noteworthy being the FL101 movement manufactured in 1955. In 1957, they designed their automatic calibers, FL103 & 104. 1960 to 1968 was the golden era for Favre-Leuba. The new FL251 caliber, an extra flat, twin barrel with a central second hand and a power reserve of 50 hours was launched in 1962.

In 1962, the hand-winding wristwatch, Bivouac, which was the first ever mechanical watch with altimeter & aneroid barometer was launched. Paul-Emile Victor was one of the first to wear this piece during his Antarctica expedition while Michel Vaucher & Walter Bonatti used it while summiting the Grandes Jorasses in the Alps.

1964 experienced another grand launch, one of the first ever dive watches, Deep Blue, water resistant up to 200m. It was this same distinguished team who was also responsible for the launch of the famous Bathy in 1968, the first mechanical watch that not only indicated the dive time and duration but also accurately measured the dive depth

In 1968, Favre-Leuba added an automatic winding to its groundbreaking double-barrel calibers – making it one of the first brands to use this combination in series production. The new movements were available with or without calendar function.

Florian A Favre & Eric A Favre, sons of Henry A Favre along with Frederic A Favre, grandson of Fritz-Augustus Favre, represented the eight generation. They were the Board of Directors of Favre-Leuba, until the management of the company passed out of the hands of the esteemed family.

Renowned for its pioneering spirit, creativity, artful watch-making & a spirit of innovation displayed by all members across 8 generations, has made this brand name what it is today.

The challenge brought about by the relatively inexpensive Quartz movement introduced in 1969 greatly increased competition for the company's comparatively expensive mechanical watches.

As a result, the family sold the company, which passed through different hands such as Benedom SA and LVMH. On 16 November 2011, Titan Company Limited, the watch manufacturing company of the Tata group,INDIA acquired the prestigious brand Favre-Leuba.

Milestones





Favre-Leuba alarm clock
1925: Developed the single button Chronograph wristwatch

1946: Developed an 18 carat, gold, manual winding wristwatch with triple calendar

1955: Production of a gold chronograph watch with calendar, moon phase, 30-minute and 12-hour counters

1955: Developed the FL 101 movement

1956: Developed the Sea King and Sea Chief models

1957: Launch of Datic wristwatches with FL 102 caliber and the Daymatic with automatic calibers FL103 and FL104

1960: Developed one of the first dive watches, Water Deep

1962: Developed the FL251, extra thin (2.95mm), twin barrel calibre with 50-hour power reserve

1962: Developed the Bivouac, first ever altimeter / barometer wristwatch.

1964: Developed Deep Blue, water resistant up to 200meters

1965: FL251 twin power calibre developed and launch of Sea King model

1966: Developed the first diving chronograph wristwatch

1968: Development of the model Bathy, first ever wristwatch with depth or pressure gauge for divers.

1968: Automatic winding for doubel-barrel calibers.

1968: Developed the Harpoon watch model

2016: The all new Raider Harpoon has been launched. A divers watch with a patented display of time.


https://journal.hautehorlogerie.org/en/ ... 291-years/

http://wristwatchmojo.com/classics/1970 ... -duomatic/

http://www.masterhorologer.com/2016/11/ ... tions.html

http://www.masterhorologer.com/2010/02/ ... ofile.html
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Re: Favre-Leuba (reactivated)- Thoughts?

Postby conjurer » February 13th 2017, 11:31am

Normally, I'd figure that it's just another brand brought back from the dead, but the ADs (at least in India and the UAE) seem to be selling other fine brands as well, which indicates that it's unlikely to end up on TV shopping channels at two in the morning.
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Re: Favre-Leuba (reactivated)- Thoughts?

Postby tiktok » February 13th 2017, 12:02pm

Just for comparative reference, here's NOS A Schild heavily reworked to run a retrograde complication.

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Re: Favre-Leuba (reactivated)- Thoughts?

Postby Falstaff » February 13th 2017, 12:04pm

Hmm, didn't we have a thread about HMT being up for sale a while back. Wonder if TATA bought the FL name and HMT and is stamping out "new" Favre-Leubas?
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Re: Favre-Leuba (reactivated)- Thoughts?

Postby foghorn » February 13th 2017, 1:45pm

Image
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Re: Favre-Leuba (reactivated)- Thoughts?

Postby BigCheez » February 13th 2017, 1:53pm

foghorn wrote:Image

He's no Jason Taylor, but might sell a few.
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Re: Favre-Leuba (reactivated)- Thoughts?

Postby eddiea » February 13th 2017, 5:15pm

ocean wrote:Wish they use the old 253 but very doubtful.

Yup.....
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Re: Favre-Leuba (reactivated)- Thoughts?

Postby koimaster » February 13th 2017, 8:17pm

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Re: Favre-Leuba (reactivated)- Thoughts?

Postby foghorn » February 13th 2017, 8:28pm

koimaster wrote:http://www.watchuseek.com/favre-leuba-raider-harpoon/




I saw this on Timezone.


Why make it so hard to tell the time? Esp. on a dive watch.


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Re: Favre-Leuba (reactivated)- Thoughts?

Postby MKTheVintageBloke » February 13th 2017, 8:43pm

Yeah, the new Harpoon is the watch I've mentioned in the first post- here's that ad:



They could get more original with the music, it sounds awfully close to Time by Pink Floyd.

While I don't think that it's something that would be sold through the likes of Bovine, it really pisses me off, when I see "Movement: automatic" in the tech specs. I mean, why is there absolutely nothing about the movement? That's why I think it's slightly shady- before I've seen that it's the Tata conglomerate that bought them, my first thought was that it may well be Swissese, like Doxa. Dunno, like Chinese cases or a Sea-Gull based movement inside (like Fossil's semi-Chinese clone of the 2824). I have a nasty feeling, that they are concealing the fact of cutting corners...

While it would be great to see the cal. 253 reintroduced, I seriously doubt they'll bother to make a movement of their own. Still, a worthy successor to the twin barrel cal. 253 is quite something to dream of...

Regarding how the new Harpoon tells the time- a massive minute hand is OK for a diver, the hour display would work on land, the second hand would be largely useless when diving (or by night, for that matter- there, the hour display sucks big time as well).
Think they wanted to be so original with the design, that they didn't give a fuck about it being any practical. I've seen some rather odd diver watch designs, but I don't think there was something as illegible (and therefore useless) as this one among them.
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Re: Favre-Leuba (reactivated)- Thoughts?

Postby biglove » February 13th 2017, 8:45pm

No details about the movements utilized. No prices listed.

Long backstory with claims to historic firsts in watchmaking, spun in a manner that might even make Eyal blush. Not to mention a 48 year gap in "innovations."

A "dive watch" that is anything but easy to decipher, just what one wants when your life depends on the ability to read such a watch.

What is lacking is a author's endorsement by his leading spy busting character in his bestselling fiction series and an orange dial, you know, for visibility.

Some shade being thrown by this resurrected brand, in my opinion.

No thanks.
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Re: Favre-Leuba (reactivated)- Thoughts?

Postby MKTheVintageBloke » February 16th 2017, 7:51am

Update: just read the article about that strange diver on ABTW. Still no info about the movement, which doesn't stop FL for setting the MSRP at just below 5K CHF. They've got to be fucking kidding. Swissese shit in the Omega/Tudor territory? No. Just, no. Fuck.
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Re: Favre-Leuba (reactivated)- Thoughts?

Postby eddiea » February 16th 2017, 10:04am

conjurer wrote:Normally, I'd figure that it's just another brand brought back from the dead, but the ADs (at least in India and the UAE) seem to be selling other fine brands as well, which indicates that it's unlikely to end up on TV shopping channels at two in the morning.


They look really nice ....
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Re: Favre-Leuba (reactivated)- Thoughts?

Postby eddiea » February 16th 2017, 10:12am

MKTheVintageBloke wrote: Swissese shit in the Omega/Tudor territory?

Care to share how you came to the conclusion that the Favre-Leuba is "swissese shit" ?
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Re: Favre-Leuba (reactivated)- Thoughts?

Postby MKTheVintageBloke » February 16th 2017, 11:44am

Re-read all the responses so far... A dead and buried brand comes back from beyond the grave, is in the hands of the owners of HMT, and does not publish complete technical data- they don't even provide that to the "watch media." Something like "Movement: automatic" in the tech specs means nothing. It's a red flag in used/vintage watch listings, and something absolutely unacceptable in a 5K CHF watch. A bit as if a car manufacturer did not provide engine specs. Inshita and Doxa provide movement info- FL doesn't. Why would they be hiding something that important, if there wasn't anything to hide?

As others said, FL's modus operandi seems to be consistent with other "resurrected" brands, which tend to make a lot of noise to conceal how are they cutting corners. The Swiss Made label on the watch isn't credible either- Doxa uses it, so do Messrs Zahnschmerzen and Cormoran, or whatever are the names of the two guys who recently came here, and who put the Swiss Made inscription on watches, of which only the movements are Swiss, the rest is chow mein.

Just in my experience, when something about a watch is concealed by a smokescreen, it's to conceal a nasty surprise. Dodging the necessity of providing full tech specs is something I'd expect of an eBay crook, or someone without any knowledge of watches selling one- not from a manufacturer, assuming that there is nothing shady going on.
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Re: Favre-Leuba (reactivated)- Thoughts?

Postby eddiea » February 16th 2017, 1:17pm

MKTheVintageBloke wrote:Re-read all the responses so far... A dead and buried brand comes back from beyond the grave, is in the hands of the owners of HMT, and does not publish complete technical data- they don't even provide that to the "watch media." Something like "Movement: automatic" in the tech specs means nothing. It's a red flag in used/vintage watch listings, and something absolutely unacceptable in a 5K CHF watch. A bit as if a car manufacturer did not provide engine specs. Inshita and Doxa provide movement info- FL doesn't. Why would they be hiding something that important, if there wasn't anything to hide?

As others said, FL's modus operandi seems to be consistent with other "resurrected" brands, which tend to make a lot of noise to conceal how are they cutting corners. The Swiss Made label on the watch isn't credible either- Doxa uses it, so do Messrs Zahnschmerzen and Cormoran, or whatever are the names of the two guys who recently came here, and who put the Swiss Made inscription on watches, of which only the movements are Swiss, the rest is chow mein.

Just in my experience, when something about a watch is concealed by a smokescreen, it's to conceal a nasty surprise. Dodging the necessity of providing full tech specs is something I'd expect of an eBay crook, or someone without any knowledge of watches selling one- not from a manufacturer, assuming that there is nothing shady going on.

Still , I'm missing the Chinese element you are implying exist , curious how do you know is one?
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Re: Favre-Leuba (reactivated)- Thoughts?

Postby koimaster » February 16th 2017, 1:28pm

favre question.JPG



I guess I will wait to see their response.
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Re: Favre-Leuba (reactivated)- Thoughts?

Postby MKTheVintageBloke » February 16th 2017, 1:56pm

eddiea wrote:Still , I'm missing the Chinese element you are implying exist , curious how do you know is one?

There aren't many ways to cut corners in terms of the movement, ways which could alienate customers, and which would need to be concealed. A full Japanese movement is out of question, that wouldn't get past the Swiss law. So is a full Chinese one. But something like Fossil's clone of the 2824, built around a Sea-Gull clone thereof...
http://www.watch-wiki.net/index.php?title=STP1-11
Would be an almost perfect reason to conceal the movement data, yet would still allow the Swiss Made label to be used. Simply: the Chinese element fits the puzzle. Am I certain they're Swissese? No. A strong suspicion? Yes. Very much so. As I've said- conceal the movement? At this price point? That's uncanny. Of course, I might be wrong, and they might simply be careless in how they picked the people who chose what specs are to be published, but then again, I would be really surprised if it turned out, that they simply hired idiots. Which all the same wouldn't speak highly of them.

Let's see if they respond to Koi's enquiry.
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Re: Favre-Leuba (reactivated)- Thoughts?

Postby jason_recliner » February 16th 2017, 3:07pm

Smells like Walca.
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Re: Favre-Leuba (reactivated)- Thoughts?

Postby eddiea » February 16th 2017, 6:04pm

MKTheVintageBloke wrote:
eddiea wrote:Still , I'm missing the Chinese element you are implying exist , curious how do you know is one?

Am I certain they're Swissese? No. A strong suspicion? Yes..


So you don't know for sure, or have any evidences.... I see.
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Re: Favre-Leuba (reactivated)- Thoughts?

Postby eddiea » February 16th 2017, 6:30pm

koimaster wrote:I guess I will wait to see their response.


A few years back (2006/07?)they released an in house manufactured high-beat movement ( The FL 401) wonder what ever happened with that?.....

http://i419.photobucket.com/albums/pp27 ... avrel3.jpg
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