Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

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Re: Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

Postby conjurer » April 24th 2017, 6:41pm

TemerityB wrote:Good heavens. Croton's new stuff looks like it should be sold in plastic eggs in a vending machine. Pretty sure there's a few more "Swiss" examples currently for sale on that site as well.


Yup. Perhaps my memory is playing me false, but I seem to recall some half-way non-vomit-inducing designs in the old days. Not so much now:

http://www.evine.com/b/watches/croton-w ... d_2-Croton

It's like the Motherfucking Merm just don't give a shit anymore. The old man's slipping--there's no way he would have sold shit like this back then.
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Re: Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

Postby Racer-X » April 24th 2017, 6:45pm

Aaaand, you can still buy the Pineapple :D :D
http://www.evine.com/Product/645-920

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Re: Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

Postby Hawk » April 25th 2017, 9:19am

Pineapples and pee holes - memories are made of this.

I always wanted a sphereulite fucking crystal. I heard it's made from Flame Fusion, Saphitek, Krysterna and carbon nano bucky balls combined under heat and pressure to form cheap glass. Despite efforts mounted by a consortium including Corning, Carl Zeiss and Nikon to license the technology the motherfucking Merm has remained mum regarding the exact formulation.
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Re: Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

Postby TemerityB » May 14th 2017, 5:09pm

More fodder for our friends in the FH: This "official Yankees" watch that has, apparently, an ETA 2824 movement inside, but states "Swiss Mvt" on its dial. Get 'em, boys.

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https://www.originalgrain.com/pages/yankeestadiumwatch
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Re: Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

Postby biglove » May 15th 2017, 5:41am

Looking at Amazon reviews of the brand, LE with wood from the Arc of the Covenant or not, doesn't look like they are well made.

https://www.amazon.com/Original-Grain-R ... geNumber=1
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Re: Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

Postby TemerityB » August 11th 2017, 5:58pm

This is an expensive watch, but i wonder if the designation "Swiss DNA" (what does that even mean?) might raise an eyebrow or two.

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Re: Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

Postby biglove » August 11th 2017, 7:23pm

TemerityB wrote:This is an expensive watch, but i wonder if the designation "Swiss DNA" (what does that even mean?) might raise an eyebrow or two.

Image


Oddly the Walden watch "https" site is not secure.

Their website describes the term as, "Waldan is a boutique style brand that tells a story of heritage, survival and the “American Dream” through the craftsmanship of it’s timeless “Swiss DNA” timepieces. Waldan Watches are assembled in the United States, powered by a large stock of NOS swiss movements acquired during the liquidation of mechanical movements by swiss companies during the quartz crisis."

NOS movements from ~40 years ago in $10K+ watches.
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Re: Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

Postby PiningforElgin » August 12th 2017, 8:31am

biglove wrote:
TemerityB wrote:This is an expensive watch, but i wonder if the designation "Swiss DNA" (what does that even mean?) might raise an eyebrow or two.



Oddly the Walden watch "https" site is not secure.

Their website describes the term as, "Waldan is a boutique style brand that tells a story of heritage, survival and the “American Dream” through the craftsmanship of it’s timeless “Swiss DNA” timepieces. Waldan Watches are assembled in the United States, powered by a large stock of NOS swiss movements acquired during the liquidation of mechanical movements by swiss companies during the quartz crisis."

NOS movements from ~40 years ago in $10K+ watches.


Those recycled movements still retain COSC accuracy to be called chronometer? Sounds either fishy or unlikely
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Re: Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

Postby TemerityB » August 18th 2017, 4:58pm

Croton obviously has not gotten the memo; they keep issuing new watches with designations such as this new one, now being sold on the Evine website. http://www.evine.com/Product/647-580

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As an aside, look at that craftsmanship, will ya? Looks like somebody got a C- in shop class.
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Re: Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

Postby biglove » August 18th 2017, 5:50pm

TemerityB wrote:Croton obviously has not gotten the memo; they keep issuing new watches with designations such as this new one, now being sold on the Evine website. http://www.evine.com/Product/647-580

Image

As an aside, look at that craftsmanship, will ya? Looks like somebody got a C- in shop class.



More like "crapsmanship." Jeebus.
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Re: Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

Postby PiningforElgin » August 18th 2017, 6:56pm

TemerityB wrote:Croton obviously has not gotten the memo; they keep issuing new watches with designations such as this new one, now being sold on the Evine website. http://www.evine.com/Product/647-580

Image

As an aside, look at that craftsmanship, will ya? Looks like somebody got a C- in shop class.


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Re: Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

Postby koimaster » December 4th 2017, 10:54am

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Re: Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

Postby TemerityB » December 4th 2017, 8:00pm

Hope our friend from the FH still checks in now and again:

Clockwork Synergy - I company I actually like, it's the online strap seller - is jumping on board and coming up with the 35,439th version of a minimalist "Swiss" watch. However, like Croton, apparently ol' "Jaxon Edwin" didn't get the memo - you can't use "Swiss Movt" on dials anymore, you innovators, you. Too bad - I wanted to experience the magic of "mimimalistic lugs." More hilarity - "Sapphire" is misspelled not only in the sales pitch, but on the case back design.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/87 ... axon-edwin

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Re: Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

Postby koimaster » December 26th 2017, 4:13pm

Zelos can be added to this thread. I previously warned them not only this month but last summer as well.

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Re: Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

Postby koimaster » December 27th 2017, 11:11am

I was sent the link below (Jskelton) today. I had seen the post when it was first put up but had forgotten about it. The party sending it is not a member here but asked if this statement below was true. I pointed them to this thread and the first post. There is a bit of a difference between the post below and the reality that Yves Bugman states in my original post.

I had sent him the post below
Indeed, very interesting...
Best regards
Yves

Yves Bugmann
Head of Legal Division


Federation of the Swiss Watch Industry FH
2501 Biel/Bienne
Switzerland
Tel +41 (0)32 328 08 28
www.fhs.swiss




http://watchintyme.com/showthread.php?2 ... t=jskelton



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What "Swiss" and other markings on a dial actually mean >>>



I posted this on my Facebook, but for those who don't use the book of faces, here it is...

I am asked all the time about the “Swissness” of certain brands or watches, and how a watch that’s not entirely made in Switzerland can bear the marks “Swiss” or “Swiss Made” on the dial. I have also seen a lot of arguments on forums about this as well. The legitimacy of “Swiss” and “Swiss Made” markings on watches has been something of great online controversy, mainly due to information & misinformation spread online over the years. The best answer to the questions of “what defines Swiss Made” and “how should watches & dials be marked” is a very long and drawn out conversation. I’ll begin with an abbreviated version of it, then for those who care to read further, I will detail it in the follow-up below.

If the brand is a US based entity, and they distribute their products to the US, they are governed by US law. As such, they must conform to the US laws on how a watch needs to be marked to reflect its country of origin. Read that part again, because above all else, this is the important factor that most people never talk about, or simply don’t know about.

Here is a direct link to the “Informed Compliance Document” that defines the issues of watch marking for watch manufacturers, written by the agency that enforces it:
https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/fi...s/icp055_3.pdf

Pursuant to the “Informed Compliance Document”, it is the movement inside of the watch that determines its “origin”. Brands are required by law to denote this origin on the dials of their watches (page 8 of this document). This is written by the agency charged with enforcing these laws, the US Customs & Border Protection. If a watch contains a Swiss Made movement, “Swiss” should be denoted on the dials. Under the same section it also lists “Swiss Made” as an acceptable term under US law, but many choose to use “Swiss” instead. This does not reflect the use of “Swiss Parts” movements.

So if you question why a brand makes most or all of the watch outside of Switzerland (like Hong Kong for example) and puts the word “SWISS” on their dial, this should have clarified that for you. Many people accuse brands of being deceitful or at the least, misleading, by doing this. In fact they are doing what the law requires. If it has a Swiss movement inside, you are required by US law to put a Swiss marking on the dial and/or caseback in a permanent and conspicuous manner. If it has a Japanese movement inside, they must denote “Japanese” origin on their dial and/or caseback.

Read below for the more detailed explanation:

The explanation of “markings” as set forth by US law is detailed on page 8 of the above mentioned article:

Under 19 U.S.C.1304, as interpreted by Customs, the country of origin of the movement of the watch or clock determines the country of origin of the watch or clock. Although the addition of the hands, dial, or case adds definition to the timepiece, they do not substantially change the character or use of the watch or clock movement, which is the essence of the watch or clock.

*As noted here, it is the MOVEMENT’s country of origin that determines the country of origin for the watch, regardless of where the case/hands/dial or other components are made or assembled.

The movement's country of origin should appear conspicuously and legibly on the dial face or on the outside of the back of the watch or clock.

*As further explained here, the movement’s country of origin must be conspicuously and legibly displayed on either the dial or the caseback (or both if you wish). So if there is a Swiss Made movement inside, the brand is required to display markings to represent Swiss origin on the dial and/or caseback.

Below is the definition for acceptable markings on all watches:

Acceptable markings for watches and clocks consist of just the name of the country of origin or the name of the country of origin preceded by “Made in,” “Product of” or similar words. Also acceptable is the use of the word “Movement” or an abbreviation such as “Mov't” or “Movt” along with the name of the country. Examples of acceptable markings for a watch or clock if the movement is assembled in Hong Kong would be: “Hong Kong,” “Hong Kong Movement,” “Movement Hong Kong,” or “MOVT Hong Kong.” The wording “Swiss Made” is another example of an acceptable marking if the country of origin is Switzerland.

*As we see here, they spell out clearly what the requirements are to satisfy the US laws. In the case where a brand uses a Swiss Made movement, they are required to write one of these things on their dials and/or casebacks:

Swiss
Swiss Made
Product of Switzerland
Made in Switzerland
Swiss Mov’t
Swiss Movement

Let’s say you own a watch brand, and you are headquartered in the US, and distribute your products in the US. Let’s now say that every component of your watch is made in Lithuania, and a Swiss MADE movement is placed inside. According to US law, the dial or caseback must display “Swiss Made”, Swiss”, Swiss Mov’t”, Swiss Movement”, Made in Switzerland” or “Product of Switzerland”. The watch is not Lithuanian, it is Swiss by US law definition.

Swiss law, and the laws of other countries may differ in some ways.

And the Swiss Federation Guidelines that many people often refer to play no actual part in what is legal or illegal anywhere in the world, and particularly in the US.

The Swiss Federation is a governing body over those who have elected to join their federation, and are accepted into it. Like any federation, they are held to a set of rules that are enforced by the organization. These are not government laws, but association rules. If you are NOT a federation member, you are not required to adhere to their rules. Think of it like a Homeowner’s Association. You can choose to live where there is one governing what you do with your property, or choose to live somewhere that has no HOA, and you are not bound by their rules.
The Free Masons for another example, may have some practical “laws” within their organization that I’m unaware of because I’m not a member. Regardless of how well thought out their “laws” are, since I am not a member, I am not required by them, or any agency, to adhere to their rules.
The Swiss federation Guidelines often confuse consumers because they read their organization’s mandates as enforceable law, however they are not. They are very well thought out guidelines, and make a great degree of sense, but they are not laws to be enforced by the US.
Another source for misinformation, or at least confusion, is the classification of movements (Swiss Made or Swiss Parts). Here is how the US law is enforced regarding this:

Where the parts of a movement are from one country, and the parts are assembled into a movement in a second country (the country of origin), the marking on the watch and clock may identify the country where the parts of the movement are made (in addition to the country of origin of the watch or clock), as long as the marking is in compliance with the requirements of 19 CFR 134.46. 19 CFR 134.46 provides that when the name of a place other than the country of origin appears on an imported article or its container, and the non-origin reference may mislead or deceive the ultimate purchaser as to the actual origin of the article, there shall appear, legibly and permanently, in close proximity to such place name, and in at least a comparable size, the name of the country of origin preceded by “Made in,” “Product of” or words of similar meaning. As an example, if the parts of the movement are made in Switzerland and the movement is assembled in China, markings such as “Swiss Parts/Made in China,” “Swiss
Parts/Movement China,” “Swiss Parts/China Movement” are acceptable.

*So basically, if you are using a movement where the parts are sourced from Switzerland, but the movement is actually assembled in China, you must denote that the movement’s country of origin is China.


Last edited by jskelton; 04-13-2016 at 10:29 AM
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Re: Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

Postby koimaster » December 27th 2017, 11:11am

I was sent the link below (Jskelton) today. I had seen the post when it was first put up but had forgotten about it. The party sending it is not a member here but asked if this statement below was true. I pointed them to this thread and the first post. There is a bit of a difference between the post below and the reality that Yves Bugman states in my original post.

I had sent him the post below
Indeed, very interesting...
Best regards
Yves

Yves Bugmann
Head of Legal Division


Federation of the Swiss Watch Industry FH
2501 Biel/Bienne
Switzerland
Tel +41 (0)32 328 08 28
http://www.fhs.swiss




http://watchintyme.com/showthread.php?2 ... t=jskelton



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What "Swiss" and other markings on a dial actually mean >>>



I posted this on my Facebook, but for those who don't use the book of faces, here it is...

I am asked all the time about the “Swissness” of certain brands or watches, and how a watch that’s not entirely made in Switzerland can bear the marks “Swiss” or “Swiss Made” on the dial. I have also seen a lot of arguments on forums about this as well. The legitimacy of “Swiss” and “Swiss Made” markings on watches has been something of great online controversy, mainly due to information & misinformation spread online over the years. The best answer to the questions of “what defines Swiss Made” and “how should watches & dials be marked” is a very long and drawn out conversation. I’ll begin with an abbreviated version of it, then for those who care to read further, I will detail it in the follow-up below.

If the brand is a US based entity, and they distribute their products to the US, they are governed by US law. As such, they must conform to the US laws on how a watch needs to be marked to reflect its country of origin. Read that part again, because above all else, this is the important factor that most people never talk about, or simply don’t know about.

Here is a direct link to the “Informed Compliance Document” that defines the issues of watch marking for watch manufacturers, written by the agency that enforces it:
https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/fi...s/icp055_3.pdf

Pursuant to the “Informed Compliance Document”, it is the movement inside of the watch that determines its “origin”. Brands are required by law to denote this origin on the dials of their watches (page 8 of this document). This is written by the agency charged with enforcing these laws, the US Customs & Border Protection. If a watch contains a Swiss Made movement, “Swiss” should be denoted on the dials. Under the same section it also lists “Swiss Made” as an acceptable term under US law, but many choose to use “Swiss” instead. This does not reflect the use of “Swiss Parts” movements.

So if you question why a brand makes most or all of the watch outside of Switzerland (like Hong Kong for example) and puts the word “SWISS” on their dial, this should have clarified that for you. Many people accuse brands of being deceitful or at the least, misleading, by doing this. In fact they are doing what the law requires. If it has a Swiss movement inside, you are required by US law to put a Swiss marking on the dial and/or caseback in a permanent and conspicuous manner. If it has a Japanese movement inside, they must denote “Japanese” origin on their dial and/or caseback.

Read below for the more detailed explanation:

The explanation of “markings” as set forth by US law is detailed on page 8 of the above mentioned article:

Under 19 U.S.C.1304, as interpreted by Customs, the country of origin of the movement of the watch or clock determines the country of origin of the watch or clock. Although the addition of the hands, dial, or case adds definition to the timepiece, they do not substantially change the character or use of the watch or clock movement, which is the essence of the watch or clock.

*As noted here, it is the MOVEMENT’s country of origin that determines the country of origin for the watch, regardless of where the case/hands/dial or other components are made or assembled.

The movement's country of origin should appear conspicuously and legibly on the dial face or on the outside of the back of the watch or clock.

*As further explained here, the movement’s country of origin must be conspicuously and legibly displayed on either the dial or the caseback (or both if you wish). So if there is a Swiss Made movement inside, the brand is required to display markings to represent Swiss origin on the dial and/or caseback.

Below is the definition for acceptable markings on all watches:

Acceptable markings for watches and clocks consist of just the name of the country of origin or the name of the country of origin preceded by “Made in,” “Product of” or similar words. Also acceptable is the use of the word “Movement” or an abbreviation such as “Mov't” or “Movt” along with the name of the country. Examples of acceptable markings for a watch or clock if the movement is assembled in Hong Kong would be: “Hong Kong,” “Hong Kong Movement,” “Movement Hong Kong,” or “MOVT Hong Kong.” The wording “Swiss Made” is another example of an acceptable marking if the country of origin is Switzerland.

*As we see here, they spell out clearly what the requirements are to satisfy the US laws. In the case where a brand uses a Swiss Made movement, they are required to write one of these things on their dials and/or casebacks:

Swiss
Swiss Made
Product of Switzerland
Made in Switzerland
Swiss Mov’t
Swiss Movement

Let’s say you own a watch brand, and you are headquartered in the US, and distribute your products in the US. Let’s now say that every component of your watch is made in Lithuania, and a Swiss MADE movement is placed inside. According to US law, the dial or caseback must display “Swiss Made”, Swiss”, Swiss Mov’t”, Swiss Movement”, Made in Switzerland” or “Product of Switzerland”. The watch is not Lithuanian, it is Swiss by US law definition.

Swiss law, and the laws of other countries may differ in some ways.

And the Swiss Federation Guidelines that many people often refer to play no actual part in what is legal or illegal anywhere in the world, and particularly in the US.

The Swiss Federation is a governing body over those who have elected to join their federation, and are accepted into it. Like any federation, they are held to a set of rules that are enforced by the organization. These are not government laws, but association rules. If you are NOT a federation member, you are not required to adhere to their rules. Think of it like a Homeowner’s Association. You can choose to live where there is one governing what you do with your property, or choose to live somewhere that has no HOA, and you are not bound by their rules.
The Free Masons for another example, may have some practical “laws” within their organization that I’m unaware of because I’m not a member. Regardless of how well thought out their “laws” are, since I am not a member, I am not required by them, or any agency, to adhere to their rules.
The Swiss federation Guidelines often confuse consumers because they read their organization’s mandates as enforceable law, however they are not. They are very well thought out guidelines, and make a great degree of sense, but they are not laws to be enforced by the US.
Another source for misinformation, or at least confusion, is the classification of movements (Swiss Made or Swiss Parts). Here is how the US law is enforced regarding this:

Where the parts of a movement are from one country, and the parts are assembled into a movement in a second country (the country of origin), the marking on the watch and clock may identify the country where the parts of the movement are made (in addition to the country of origin of the watch or clock), as long as the marking is in compliance with the requirements of 19 CFR 134.46. 19 CFR 134.46 provides that when the name of a place other than the country of origin appears on an imported article or its container, and the non-origin reference may mislead or deceive the ultimate purchaser as to the actual origin of the article, there shall appear, legibly and permanently, in close proximity to such place name, and in at least a comparable size, the name of the country of origin preceded by “Made in,” “Product of” or words of similar meaning. As an example, if the parts of the movement are made in Switzerland and the movement is assembled in China, markings such as “Swiss Parts/Made in China,” “Swiss
Parts/Movement China,” “Swiss Parts/China Movement” are acceptable.

*So basically, if you are using a movement where the parts are sourced from Switzerland, but the movement is actually assembled in China, you must denote that the movement’s country of origin is China.


Last edited by jskelton; 04-13-2016 at 10:29 AM
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Re: Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

Postby TemerityB » December 27th 2017, 12:50pm

Once again, J. Skelton is what Gorilla Monsoon used to call Bobby Heenan: "A fountain of misinformation."
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Re: Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

Postby Hawk » December 28th 2017, 7:28am

To Steve's credit that Skelton steaming pile was "de-stickified" and rapidly scrolled into obscurity when exposed but not before some number of WITS thanked the Skelton for the education he had so thoughtfully provided.

However it was and remains bullshit and its lifespan as a "sticky" was cut short when the bullshit was exposed.

T'was a glorious moment when a lowly member could call bullshit on an extensive and plausible-sounding Skelton fuck up. It's subsequent slide into obscurity may have been the last nail in his assumed expertise's coffin. Or not - but it was nice to ponder.

It's depressing that even debunked and de-stickied Skelton trash can still be found growing, mushroom-like, wherever shit can be found on the intertubz. Perhaps because WIT kicking it to the curb wouldn't impact its status at facebook. While the whole affair was playing out I had assumed that any number of dumb ass importers would jump all over it in an attempt to justify their markings. It however had NOT occured to me that importers of good faith might actually believe it. However I would personally concede that "Swiss Mvmt" is a relatively minor infraction as the Skelton post actually goes whole-hog by stating unequivacally that a Swiss movement in a Chinese case assembled in Hong Kong can be marked "Swiss Made" with impunity.

Perhaps Skelton's most egregious and continuing fuck up is the following:
The Free Masons for another example, may have some practical “laws” within their organization that I’m unaware of because I’m not a member. Regardless of how well thought out their “laws” are, since I am not a member, I am not required by them, or any agency, to adhere to their rules.
The Swiss federation Guidelines often confuse consumers because they read their organization’s mandates as enforceable law, however they are not.

Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. The Swiss FH's authority to determine the use of the marks is based in UNITED STATES trademark law and can be enforced in the same manner as any domestic trademark infringement. Play by the FH's rules or you risk an infringement suit that the FH will win handily. Trademarks are enforced though the civil courts meaning that infringements must be prosecuted by the trademark holder - US Customs won't do it for you. Nonetheless they're not something you can simply ignore by not being a member of the FH. A watch importer isn't a member of the USPTO either but will ignore it only at their peril.
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Re: Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

Postby TemerityB » February 17th 2018, 5:04pm

Just browsing at Amazon, and if this is "Swiss Made," I'd be awfully shocked. Not to mention all the obvious trademark infringement: We bring you the Subdiver Super Luxury Submariner 007 Mens Nobiliary Wrist Automatic Watch 40mm Cerachrom, selling for $234:

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https://www.amazon.com/Submariner-Nobil ... A379300011
Last edited by TemerityB on February 17th 2018, 6:02pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

Postby foghorn » February 17th 2018, 5:13pm

I was curious so I asked a question.
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Re: Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

Postby PiningforElgin » February 17th 2018, 5:57pm

TemerityB wrote:Just browsing tat Amazon, and if this is "Swiss Made," I'd be awfully shocked. Not to mention all the obvious trademark infringement: We bring you the Subdiver Super Luxury Submariner 007 Mens Nobiliary Wrist Automatic Watch 40mm Cerachrom, selling for $234:

Image

Image

https://www.amazon.com/Submariner-Nobil ... A379300011


It says it uses a 3155 movement. That's a Rolex movement so obviously this one is a replica movement. In other words, redialed fake
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Re: Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

Postby biglove » February 17th 2018, 7:18pm

Nice bullshit reviews, too.
"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please."- Mark Twain

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Re: Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

Postby TemerityB » February 17th 2018, 7:30pm

biglove wrote:Nice bullshit reviews, too.


In the Q&A, someone asked if the movement was a real Rolex movement, and the people who are shilling these actually called it a replica. Therefore: Amazon is, basically, not above selling replica watches. Sure, the big A has gotten so immense and bloated that it's likely it no longer has any clue what it's doing as long as it has product, product, and more product, but WTF.

And that's not all: Check out the other "luxury watches" being sold on Amazon by AAA Luxury Watch INC. right now:
https://www.amazon.com/s?marketplaceID= ... irect=true
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Re: Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

Postby TemerityB » February 17th 2018, 7:41pm

Holy, shit - it gets worse. From a watch that looks like a Cartier..check out this Q&A question and response from the company:

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Also, as it says there, when you blow up the pic, check out the logo:

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Wow. Amazon is actually selling replicas whether they know it or not. The FH should have a field day with this one.
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Re: Federation of Swiss Watch Industry vs US Swissese

Postby conjurer » February 18th 2018, 12:50am

foghorn wrote:I was curious so I asked a question.


Question:
Does this uses the reel rolecks 3135 moovemint??

Answer:
Is swiss well know high quality movements, nearly approach to the 3135.
Well worth the price.

TMMLH.
Jim...you are a ray of sunshine here.

--pacerguy, tonguing Jawbone's distended ballsack, at WITless.


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